[Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

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[Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby XLightningStormL » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:16 pm

I find it interesting people haven't made a proper fish unit/monster for GZDoom despite the water support (and typically when people do have underwater monsters they're Duke3d Sharks for some reason???) I just thought I'd ask if anyone had some proper sprites (keyword sprites, not model rips) of Quake's Rotfish (hell even Q2's Barracuda Shark could work)
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby Nash » Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:49 pm

The reason why there aren't any "proper sprites" for it yet is because it actually takes a significant amount of work to make something not look model rip-ey. Consider the following:

Image

This was a quick model rip that was then painted over manually. And in the end, it still looks like a model rip.

To get something that looks more Doom-sprite-ey, one would pretty much have to remodel and retexture the character from scratch. Here's a recent commission I did, where the customer wanted something that was obviously Quake Death Knight-inspired:

Image

I DID think to rip the original Quake Death Knight model to use it as a base, and try to modify it to get what I want, but you know what? I found that to be incredibly annoying and mediocre, and I got much better results and FASTER by modeling it from scratch. That said though, faster doesn't mean easier - it's still a lot of work. What I mean is, the time I put into remodeling it from scratch gives me a better result, whereas if I tried to shoehorn the model rip into something usable, it would be more time spent and the end result still wouldn't be satisfactory.

So yeah, there's your answer on why there aren't "proper sprites" for Quake monsters. It's not trivial to do. :)
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby XLightningStormL » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:27 pm

Nash wrote:The reason why there aren't any "proper sprites" for it yet is because it actually takes a significant amount of work to make something not look model rip-ey. Consider the following:

This was a quick model rip that was then painted over manually. And in the end, it still looks like a model rip.

To get something that looks more Doom-sprite-ey, one would pretty much have to remodel and retexture the character from scratch. Here's a recent commission I did, where the customer wanted something that was obviously Quake Death Knight-inspired:

I DID think to rip the original Quake Death Knight model to use it as a base, and try to modify it to get what I want, but you know what? I found that to be incredibly annoying and mediocre, and I got much better results and FASTER by modeling it from scratch. That said though, faster doesn't mean easier - it's still a lot of work. What I mean is, the time I put into remodeling it from scratch gives me a better result, whereas if I tried to shoehorn the model rip into something usable, it would be more time spent and the end result still wouldn't be satisfactory.

So yeah, there's your answer on why there aren't "proper sprites" for Quake monsters. It's not trivial to do. :)


I'm not referring to "sprite sprites" but rather model rips that are pixel correct (rather than something like Arena Shooter mod where the monster sprites were proper full model rips in a higher resolution, than the proper 1-1 pixel ratio that fits better in with the doom 1/2 art assets.
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby Cherno » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:45 am

The Ogre sprite Nash posted above is the perfect example showing the problem with 1x model render sprites: They need a significant amount of pixel pushing, especially in the face area (like the Ogre sprite), otherwise they are just a mess of pixels where distinctive features like eyes and teeth are only hinted at, if at all.

Take a look at this ogre at 1x resolution which I rendered without any post-work, it's a mess!

Image
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:57 am

And, let's be honest, the rotfish is an awful model with an awful skin too. Drawing it from scratch would probably turn out better than screen-capturing that vaguely fish-like geometric shape.

Indeed, IMO, the Quake models in particular really suffer from being the first generation of full 3D models in a mainstream FPS. I thought they looked horribly blocky in 1996 and that hasn't improved with time - especially when compared to other games that came out not too long afterwards but with much better models. I know that the original had a certain "charm" but I've honestly always found the enemies a graphical step-down even compared to its sprite-based contemporaries.

In fact, the first time I played Quake, I was disappointed with it, mostly because of how it looked and, in particular, the strange blocky enemies that I couldn't really tell what they were meant to look like. Remember, that would have been before I had hardware acceleration or even a decent screen resolution. It was all just a mess of pixelated brown with a sub-par Doom-like story and flow. (IMO of course.)
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby neoworm » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:10 am

It's better to tweak the model first. Change proportions, clean up and brighten the textures, recolor them to DooM palette if that is what you want to use, use neutral lightning so details from the texture stay visible etc.
There is another problem - lot of models with their original animations doesn't look well when rendered from dead front. For example the chainsaw of the ogre just doesn't look like chainsaw at all. In true 3D you will very rarely see the monster from this angle. So you often need to tweak the animations to make them look good from the front since that is the most visible angle in game. The final sprite also needs to be visible and recognizable so that you can properly react to it, fill the hitbox, make the attack animations readable so you can react to it attacking. You pretty much need to design the enemy as a sprite first and than render it to fit the criteria. For example I fear that the Quake fish will be too slim to be visible well enough as a sprite, it would probably need some better swimming animation and maybe attack that will twist the fish in some way to make it more visible and visually pleasing for player.

>Enjay
It's still possible to get a decent sprite out of it, you just have to rely on textures more than on the model itself. This is hardly postprocessed, on the other hand the texture and the model are modified. I still have to clean up the rest of the animations...
Image
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:50 am

That does look good - almost not like a model rip. :yup:
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby XLightningStormL » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:36 am

What about the Quake 2 Barracuda?
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Re: [Request] Quake Rotfish Sprites

Postby Hidden Hands » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:33 pm

neoworm wrote:It's better to tweak the model first. Change proportions, clean up and brighten the textures, recolor them to DooM palette if that is what you want to use, use neutral lightning so details from the texture stay visible etc.
There is another problem - lot of models with their original animations doesn't look well when rendered from dead front. For example the chainsaw of the ogre just doesn't look like chainsaw at all. In true 3D you will very rarely see the monster from this angle. So you often need to tweak the animations to make them look good from the front since that is the most visible angle in game. The final sprite also needs to be visible and recognizable so that you can properly react to it, fill the hitbox, make the attack animations readable so you can react to it attacking. You pretty much need to design the enemy as a sprite first and than render it to fit the criteria. For example I fear that the Quake fish will be too slim to be visible well enough as a sprite, it would probably need some better swimming animation and maybe attack that will twist the fish in some way to make it more visible and visually pleasing for player.

>Enjay
It's still possible to get a decent sprite out of it, you just have to rely on textures more than on the model itself. This is hardly postprocessed, on the other hand the texture and the model are modified. I still have to clean up the rest of the animations...
Image


This looks bloody amazing. Please tell me someone has made full sheets of these Quake monsters.
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