[Closed] Custom pronouns

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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Rachael » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:24 pm

TheMightyHeracross wrote:Samurai has good intentions as well as everyone else involved here. Everyone here is a good person, and I'd really hope this can be resolved without things getting nasty. :)

I realize they have good intentions, but sometimes you have to be reminded not to go too far with your views. If you do, it makes enemies out of potentially very good allies. If anything I think they're letting emotion cloud their good judgment on this matter, and that simply will not work, nor will it win the issue for them.

I have known Graf for years and I know he's one of the most tolerant and least concerned over "who or what" a person is, just what they do or say. As for him (and me, too), you simply have to present this in a way that is easier for him to understand and is more palatable for him to accept. Not try to imply he's a bigot by simply not understanding your views.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby phantombeta » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:32 pm

Marrub wrote:Player gender can effect the player's skin and sounds as well as pronouns, and can even effect mod-specific things if queried through ACS or ZScript. Having pronouns be separate is merely logical since there is no particular reason it's tied to the player gender.

I believe what Graf means is that it'd be better to have a character gender option and a player gender option. IMO that'd be more flexible, since it would work for other languages for the non-custom pronouns, and you could also have the custom pronouns as an option labeled "custom" for the player gender option.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby TheMightyHeracross » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:34 pm

Marrub wrote:Player gender can effect the player's skin and sounds as well as pronouns, and can even effect mod-specific things if queried through ACS or ZScript. Having pronouns be separate is merely logical since there is no particular reason it's tied to the player gender.


Well to me that's similar to what Graf was getting at, no? Separating the player pawn's gender-based skins and sounds from the user's gender? Then once those are separated the user can implement their pronouns independent of the character.

So for example, if someone was playing a WAD with Crash as the player character, then the game scripting could refer to Crash (the character) as female, say for dialog, but the player (in obituaries and such) as male, or non-binary, or etc.
Or am I missing something? EDIT: yeah what pb said

Rachael wrote:I realize they have good intentions, but sometimes you have to be reminded not to go too far with your views.

[...]

I have known Graf for years and I know he's one of the most tolerant and least concerned over "who or what" a person is, just what they do. As for him (and me, too), you simply have to present this in a way that is easier for him to understand and is more palatable for him to accept. Not try to imply he's a bigot by simply not understanding your views.


Fair enough and I was clear about pointing that out too before I added my edit but the wording of "just as bad as the bigots who harmed you" was the phrase that troubled me. I mentioned there was "no need to point fingers" and this just seemed like that in the other way.
Hey, I just don't want to see anyone fight or make it personal. There's been enough avoidable drama lately...
Last edited by TheMightyHeracross on Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Marrub » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:36 pm

phantombeta wrote:
Marrub wrote:Player gender can effect the player's skin and sounds as well as pronouns, and can even effect mod-specific things if queried through ACS or ZScript. Having pronouns be separate is merely logical since there is no particular reason it's tied to the player gender.

I believe what Graf means is that it'd be better to have a character gender option and a player gender option. IMO that'd be more flexible, since it would work for other languages for the non-custom pronouns, and you could also have the custom pronouns as an option labeled "custom" for the player gender option.

Not really, since many languages do not have the ability to support the 3 currently implemented genders, let alone the object pronoun. It would legitimately be easier to just allow English users to specify their pronouns and leave the rest as is.

Edit: Er, wait, I misinterpreted this completely. Yes, I think having the character and player gender being separate options would be a good idea in addition to adding this.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Sytruan » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:02 pm

As a forewarning, this is mostly talking about the political posts here, but is not aimed at anyone in particular or intended to offend.

Graf Zahl wrote:*snipped as other users have already discussed translation*
Let's also please consider another issue here: Here in Germany we currently have a public discussion going on how to define politically correct language that considers all genders equally. IMO the entire thing goes in the totally wrong direction and seriously alienates a significant part of our society already but the proponents of this thing are pushing on relentlessly.
And to be blunt, it's really getting annoying so please forgive my hesitation to give in to this stuff. This all is a very, very sensitive matter, and regardless of how many people may appreciate such a thing, rest assured that others will do quite the opposite.

Regardless of how anyone may view it, it is a political statement, after all, and I prefer not to make any political statements in the software I produce.


This is a bit of a doublethink here - not to point fingers at all. But let's take a moment and consider that this isn't really about whether the PR that this topic is about is suitable for the game or is the best way to achieve the objective of this PR. The entire point of a custom pronoun system is to give as many people as possible the freedom to do what they want or like. It should probably be nested to make the player menu less cluttered, but that's my only main complaint. On the point of it being political, you seem to be contradicting yourself, bringing in *literal politics from the country you live in* as a reason not to implement something. And just because something exists in a game doesn't necessarily mean that it's representative of someone's beliefs - art and entertainment can be abstract.

Even considering that, this isn't *just* political, there's a lot of science behind LGBTQA+ in general. It was easy back in the day, when we didn't understand how the human body functioned, had the technology and understanding we do now, or just plain didn't think about it since we were focused on surviving, to just ignore things like extra or missing chromosomes, let alone hormonal differences that can be mixing with that in exotic ways. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg

I see no reason to not implement this. If it angers people that aren't supportive of it, they're the type of people that we shouldn't want here anyway, right?

Rachael wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Regardless of how anyone may view it, it is a political statement, after all, and I prefer not to make any political statements in the software I produce.

I do generally feel this way, as well, and wonder just where we draw the line. Don't get me wrong - I am very pro-trans and trans-friendly but to be completely honest I think it's getting to a point where we're completely trivializing the meaning of the pronouns to begin with, which in effect I think diminishes the importance of the issue to start with - and that, I think, is far less supportive of those suffering than any of this would be intended to help.

The thing is - where do we draw the line? I am all for making people comfortable, but keep in mind the greater majority of folk - even trans folk - are quite happy with the he or she pronouns. I know there are intersex folk who do not identify as either gender and that is fine - but why can't we use existing words (he/she/it/they), rather than making up new ones? I'm seeing things like shi/hir/whatever and really - honestly - it's at the point now where I don't know WHAT to call you without offending you, and even if I know I am likely to forget and accidentally offend you without even intending to! Plus I'll go crazy trying to keep track of it all. It's adding complication to the language that my mind simply can't keep up with.

Before you hate me and call me a bigot for this, please at least try to understand where I am coming from, here. It feels like this just keeps changing, much too quickly at that, and I really am not convinced that all the changes are for the better. Let's at least focus on ending trans hate before we confuse ourselves about what to call each other! If I am wrong then at least help me to understand the issue and why separating gender and pronouns is so important, and why it's so important to make up arbitrary ones.

I fail to see why this is relevant to a PR, especially one that is specifically meant to help streamline the old 'gender' system in game to something more flexible, because culture has changed since Doom released, and has kept changing. Again, a large portion of the community is either LGBTQA+ or supportive of it. This is basically semantics at best. However, I do agree that it's getting nebulous, but as mentioned above, hormones, chromosomes and your genome interacting together is a very complex cocktail.

Samarai1000 wrote:The effort certain people are putting into trying to find "objective" issues where there are none, due to knowing that saying how they actually feel would look awful, might be impressive if it wasn't so disheartening. My forum signature really couldn't be more relevant, huh?

Not nice.
Rachael wrote:To say that there are no "objective" issues is patently false,

I do agree that there are objective issues on the code front, as there is with any PR or unfinished feature. Things will be buffed out, polished, and soforth. The rest of this I will not comment on, as it's much less relevant to the actual PR or reasons not to include it. Refer to the last sentence of my reply to graf's quote.

vitriolicv wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Let's also please consider another issue here: Here in Germany we currently have a public discussion going on how to define politically correct language that considers all genders equally. IMO the entire thing goes in the totally wrong direction and seriously alienates a significant part of our society already but the proponents of this thing are pushing on relentlessly.


Uh, no. It is you (cisgender people) who have alienated us for as long as we have existed. The discourse is aimed at allowing for justice that has been denied for the entirety of human history, that we have fought for for as long as we have existed. We were literally among the victims of the holocaust. Do you realize that the pink-triangle prisoners at concentration camps were kept there until decades later, because you people considered it non-political? We did no wrong, but our existence was criminalized. YOU have denied us justice. WE should be leading the discourse, and YOU should be getting the hell out of the way.

And to be blunt, it's really getting annoying so please forgive my hesitation to give in to this stuff. This all is a very, very sensitive matter, and regardless of how many people may appreciate such a thing, rest assured that others will do quite the opposite.


How terrible it must be for you to have to deal with people advocating for their existence after gay and trans panic murders, men trying to rape lesbians to make them straight, lynchings, being kicked out of our homes by our parents, being denied jobs, forcible sterilization, genital "correction" at birth for intersex children, and the constant denial of the validity of our identities. I'm crying for you, I swear. You just seem so put-upon.

Regardless of how anyone may view it, it is a political statement, after all, and I prefer not to make any political statements in the software I produce.


No, the denial of our rights to exist in the public sphere is a political statement. Inclusion is not. It has simply been politicized by conservatives, evangelicals, and literal nazis. You ARE making a political statement by continuing to politicize these issues, and the aforementioned groups are the company you are keeping by doing this.

Despite the incredible amount of sass and anger in this, I sadly must agree wholeheartedly. Yes, LGBTQA+ people are angry, and emotional, but it's very well justified considering that they've fought so hard and for so long to have their own rights like everyone else. To be themselves. To be comfortable. To be included like everyone else. They should not be forced to conform to a simple 'they/them' system when at its core, biology, anthropology, and psychology tell us that it's real. It isn't a mental illness. It is a genuine, human trait. There shouldn't be a unique pronoun for every single person, of course, but at least the ones that deserve it. But even that is superseded by the scope of a system this modular.

As for not including something like this resulting in the community attracting more conservatives and incredibly authoritarian individuals... well, all you'd need to do is look at how many posts have been removed from this topic of people making fun of this idea, of this support. Keep in mind that not everyone will look at this subforum, let alone see this topic in particular. And yet several have already posted and been banned or warned. Need we remind ourselves of Sgt Mark IV, the recent Blade of Agony scandal (notably, the part where the original creator of ZDoom did not have their name updated after transitioning even after Torm had been alerted of such, because he decided it 'was fine as is,' despite its purpose being a homage to them), or other such incidents?

This topic is starting to go far beyond just the scope of a custom pronoun system. But the real question should be, do we stay the same, or do we set a new standard? Of tolerance, support, and community? Doom hasn't stayed alive this long by staying the same.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Rachael » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:11 pm

Sytruan wrote:Yes, LGBTQA+ people are angry, and emotional, but it's very well justified considering that they've fought so hard and for so long to have their own rights like everyone else.

It is not justified to lump people who don't understand the issues (and are trying to) in with the actual bigots, though. You can be as angry as you want to be, but to outright attack myself and Graf for this was completely uncalled for.

Sytruan wrote:To be themselves. To be comfortable. To be included like everyone else. They should not be forced to conform to a simple 'they/them' system when at its core, biology, anthropology, and psychology tell us that it's real. It isn't a mental illness. It is a genuine, human trait. There shouldn't be a unique pronoun for every single person, of course, but at least the ones that deserve it. But even that is superseded by the scope of a system this modular.

As for not including something like this resulting in the community attracting more conservatives and incredibly authoritarian individuals... well, all you'd need to do is look at how many posts have been removed from this topic of people making fun of this idea, of this support. Keep in mind that not everyone will look at this subforum, let alone see this topic in particular. And yet several have already posted and been banned or warned. Need we remind ourselves of Sgt Mark IV, the recent Blade of Agony scandal (notably, the part where the original creator of ZDoom did not have their name updated after transitioning even after Torm had been alerted of such, because he decided it 'was fine as is,' despite its purpose being a homage to them), or other such incidents?

This topic is starting to go far beyond just the scope of a custom pronoun system. But the real question should be, do we stay the same, or do we set a new standard? Of tolerance, support, and community? Doom hasn't stayed alive this long by staying the same.

These are good points and worthy of additional consideration.

I don't really "get" why this is so important, but given the reasoning here allowing it into GZDoom does seem to be fairly harmless. And plus - having it does piss off the actual bigots - so that's a real plus for me, anyhow.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Sytruan » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:19 pm

Rachael wrote:It is not justified to lump people who don't understand the issues (and are trying to) in with the actual bigots, though. You can be as angry as you want to be, but to outright attack myself and Graf for this was completely uncalled for.

I partially agree to this as well. It was VERY uncalled for for it to become more personal in terms of attacks and discussion, but there *is* such a thing as just genuinely not having enough information on what you're talking about, and the loss of inflection or tone that is caused by this being a very text based format of communication.

Now, with all that out of the way, as for this actual feature itself, I do agree this should have an overarching change that separates player and character gender, with player gender being the functions from this where there's pronouns for every grammatical use - at least in english. In other languages, separating player and character gender is as close as we can get without having to make massive code rewrites, but is still a sign of support!
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Kinsie » Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:45 am

Not really sure the menu design in the OP of having five separate text fields for individual neopronouns is necessarily the right call from a menu design standpoint. They should probably only be visible when the "Custom" pronoun setting is selected, or make them and/or the Custom setting not appear when the game is set to languages where they wouldn't work properly for technical/linguistic reasons. (Realistically, the best option from a design standpoint would be to have a single menu option for neopronouns with multiple text fields next to each other that you can tab between, but I don't think anyone would be willing to try and wrangle the raw, un-ZForms'd menu code into accomplishing that!)

...Incidentally, this is perhaps a little off-topic, but is there any reason why the Player Setup menu isn't visible in the Simple Options Menu? Given that it allows the player to define their name and now their identity, it probably shouldn't be squirreled away.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Rachael » Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:48 am

Kinsie wrote:...Incidentally, this is perhaps a little off-topic, but is there any reason why the Player Setup menu isn't visible in the Simple Options Menu? Given that it allows the player to define their name and now their identity, it probably shouldn't be squirreled away.

Just didn't think of it really, it's an easy fix. fixed

Maybe at the time I probably didn't think it was relevant for people just setting up GZDoom for first-time use or whatever.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Zenon » Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:18 am

I can't really see this resulting in anything other than a [DIY].
I mean, you've got the code all sorted out, great job, but would it hurt anyone for this to simply be a separate wad or something to put in your autoload?
For the most part, who, other than the player, is going to see these pronouns when GZDoom is primarily a single player focused source port? :|
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Kinsie » Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:51 am

Zenon wrote:I mean, you've got the code all sorted out, great job, but would it hurt anyone for this to simply be a separate wad or something to put in your autoload?
Pronouns are an engine-side thing, about the only way to make it a mod would be to redefine every single LANGUAGE string that uses them, including those of every mod you play, which probably isn't hugely feasible.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Zenon » Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:57 am

Ah, okay
That's understandable
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:03 am

And that's a good example for why a feature like this needs careful review to avoid further lock-in and block future enhancements.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Marrub » Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:17 pm

Kinsie wrote:Not really sure the menu design in the OP of having five separate text fields for individual neopronouns is necessarily the right call from a menu design standpoint.

I actually implemented custom pronouns as a feature in Lithium recently and it handles it by having it be a single option separated by forward slashes, same way people tend to do it naturally. I think that would be a better alternative to using a ton of fields.
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Re: Custom pronouns

Postby Wereknight » Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:47 pm

... sigh... And here I thought that would be something worth that calm evening I had.

Honestly I went up here because one of my folks have sent me a link... which he took from That Site (yes, you heard that right, That Site) and said that I need to see this... That was a mistake so far. I mean listening to his intriguing words. Because I see nothing that intriguing.

I'll just say one simple thing: I don't care that much if you'll implement this, um, feature, or not,It's simply not of my bussiness so I tell you what:

Before implementing that, make list of pro's and cons, and make a damn poll. So it'd be decided in democratic way, does GZ really need this or not, by the thoughts of people.
You can disagree with such approach, but it comes from logic side of a problem, as well as possible troubles that may come and described by Graf earlier this day.
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