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Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:06 pm
by Graf Zahl
You cannot really blame Windows 10 for Intel abandoning their graphics hardware after a mere 5 years, essentially rendering every system on such a CPU without any option to plug in a dedicated graphics card obsolete. The HD 3000 drivers are utter garbage, they are so broken that you cannot even run a GL 3 app by using the provided extensions.
Nominally that driver supports everything GZDoom needs, but if you try to use it it will puke all over the place when trying to compile the shaders.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:19 pm
by drfrag
ReX wrote:hot-fix version of GZDooM runs just like before, even without Win 8.1 compatibility mode set. I'm now averaging about 150 fps on MAP01 of Doom2.
GZDooM 4.5.0 and Emile B's versions (as expected) still won't run unless I disable the OpenGL option.

That hotfix version was modified so you don't need to use the compatibility mode but you need it for other vintage builds and LZDoom with OpenGL.
GZ 4.5.0 requires GL 3.3 and your card only supported 3.1. But what happpens with the GLES version on OpenGL? Does it crash?

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:17 am
by sinisterseed
KynikossDragonn wrote:
ReX wrote:(i.e., the Win 10 update installing newer, problematic graphics drivers)

I wished for the rest of us, remaining on Windows 7 (or even Windows 8.1) was still a viable option. It sounds like Windows 10 just keeps getting worse and worse. Especially for anyone on old hardware. Having to constantly fight with and kludge things in Windows 10 is such a annoying prospect.

Only on seriously old hardware honestly.

Been on 10 for a looooong time now and as a result, through a ton of versions, never had any issues with the drivers. In this regard I'd actually go one step further and say 10 has probably the most stable drivers to date, along with 7. On 8.1 I've experienced a lot of instability and fps fluctuation in games, and the same sound drivers that worked just fine on 10 had serious issues on 8.1. 10 is only bad when combined with ancient hardware from what I could gather, and that meaning 10+ years old. My current hardware is just 5yrs old.

If you've not upgraded anything in your machine for such a long time, well, I'm sorry but that's on the user not the operating system, can't blame the tech for moving forward without you. Expecting a certain kind of hardware to be supported forever is just wishful thinking. Until 8.1 reaches EOL in 2023, it should be a decent alternative. And if not, Linux also exists.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:45 am
by drfrag
It's a windows bug and it's pretty common after a feature update, it also happens to me with my Radeon R2 and my laptop is three years old. But there are more serious problems this is not much of a deal you need to reinstall the driver.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:24 am
by sinisterseed
Or update, if newer versions are available, and perform a clean install - which you should anyway, Express causes more issues than it solves over time.

To reinstall, best to do that with DDU - https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/fo ... pu-core-a/

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:57 am
by ReX
KynikossDragonn wrote:I wonder if the reason why you have to install a Windows 8.1 graphics driver is because Intel doesn't want to sign a driver for Windows 10?

Yes, this is exactly the reason. intel has not upgraded the drivers for that chipset to support OpenGL 3.3, and has tacitly indicated they won't.

drfrag wrote:But what happpens with the GLES version on OpenGL? Does it crash?

I've been out of the ZDooM forums for a while, so I don't know what the "GLES version" is. I've done a bit of searching and it seems like it might be the Emile B version. If so, yes, GZDooM crashes.

sinisterseed wrote:If you've not upgraded anything in your machine for such a long time, well, I'm sorry but that's on the user not the operating system, can't blame the tech for moving forward without you. Expecting a certain kind of hardware to be supported forever is just wishful thinking.

I realize you were saying this to @KynikossDragonn, but I'd like to address some of this. From what I've read, the intel HD 3000 chipset is capable of supporting OpenGL 3.3, but intel apparently is unwilling to implement that support. As for "upgrading" hardware, a laptop offers limited options for swapping out/adding boards and cards. Otherwise I would not be in my current predicament. And expecting harware to be supported for 5 years is not the same as "forever".

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:50 am
by drfrag
ReX wrote:If so, yes, GZDooM crashes.

Must be the context creation code again then.
As a side note you could try running LZDoom on the modern render path with '+gl_riskymodernpath 1' on the command line (or set it to true on the console). If it doesn't work change it again.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:17 am
by sinisterseed
ReX wrote:As for "upgrading" hardware, a laptop offers limited options for swapping out/adding boards and cards. Otherwise I would not be in my current predicament. And expecting harware to be supported for 5 years is not the same as "forever".

Yes, I'm aware of that, I was generally speaking there. Kynikoss seemed to refer to ancient hardware there to me and wanted to comment on that.

Sadly, sometimes hardware is dropped because it was too flawed from the beginning. Old generations of integrated chipsets were notoriously bad and pretty much never received stable or decent drivers, so their demise was more or less inevitable. Until recent Intel only produced dumpsters in this department. Plus, hardware that's not even GL 3.3 capable is very old as well - OpenGL is sitting at version 4.6 at the moment, and 3.3 is over 10yrs old at this point - https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/History_of_OpenGL .

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:43 am
by ReX
sinisterseed wrote:Sadly, sometimes hardware is dropped because it was too flawed from the beginning. Old generations of integrated chipsets were notoriously bad and pretty much never received stable or decent drivers, so their demise was more or less inevitable.

Agreed. In my case, gnashing my teeth was all I knew I could do, as it was abundantly clear that intel would not be doing anything further. I was lucky that drfrag ginned up a workable version of GZDooM

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:52 pm
by Rachael
To be fair to KynikossDragonn - trying Linux on that laptop might not be such a bad idea. Mesa is really good about supporting old Intel and AMD chipsets and they do breathe new light into the system even where the vendor failed to do so themselves. It is, at least, worth a shot.

I've used Linux to extend the life of some older hardware by several years, at least.

Linux Mint is a really good system to try for those who have never set foot outside of Windows. The UI it comes with is very familiar and Windows-like, and that by itself does lessen the shock considerably of switching to something completely foreign.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:48 pm
by ReX
ReX wrote:Version: 15.28.24.4229 (Latest)
Date: 6/5/2015

My computer's Settings show:

Version: 9.17.10.4459
Date: 5/19/2016

The mystery deepens. My computer lost battery power, shut down, and needed to be restarted. I opened GZDooM, which ran just fine. Then I remembered that upon restart
Win10 forces an install of newer drivers, and this time was no exception. My Win8.1 drivers (15.28.24.4229), on which GZDooM works fine, were replaced with the Win10 drivers (9.17.10.4459), the version that makes GZDooM crawl.

So why, now, does GZDooM work fine with the drivers that used to make the game so sluggish? [I continue to use drfrag's hotfix version.]

Also, I unchecked the 8.1 compatibility box on GZDooM and LZDooM and they both ran fine with the 9.17.10.4459 drivers. This didn't happen before.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:26 am
by Big Frauds
I'm a bit late to this thread, but if you need to stop Windows from automatically installing drivers from Windows Update, "Display Driver Uninstaller" software from Wagnardsoft has a box to tick for that. https://www.wagnardsoft.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=5

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:10 am
by ReX
@Big Frauds: Thanks for the suggestion; I'll keep that in mind.

Here's another update: Now, even with Version: 15.28.24.4229 of the graphic drivers GZDooM is unplayable. I have tried switching back and forth between this set of drivers and Version: 9.17.10.4459 but the game remains unresponsive.

This is probably the final nail in the coffin of my DooM editing "career", unless I stumble upon another workaround. I really don't want to spend USD 1,000 or more on a new rig that I will primarily be buying so I can edit for, and play, GZDooM.

And isn't it just peachy that this happened when I am on the glide path to completing a major project.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:26 am
by Graf Zahl
Have you tried the GLES backend that recently got added to GZDoom?
But TBH, I do not expect a miracle here. If you need to stick to a system with an Intel HD3000 you may be better off installing Linux on it due to the unsupported Windows graphics drivers. There at least you get a working GL 3.3 driver.

Re: GZDooM Runs at Standstill Pace After Win 10 Update

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:48 am
by ReX
Graf Zahl wrote:Have you tried the GLES backend that recently got added to GZDoom?

I have not been a frequent visitor to the forums of late, and my search of the Development Builds yielded no results. On the forums I found this link, but it's from months ago and I don't know if there's anything newer. (Unless a newer version is to be found here?) Also, would you please point me to relevant documentation?

If you need to stick to a system with an Intel HD3000 you may be better off installing Linux on it due to the unsupported Windows graphics drivers. There at least you get a working GL 3.3 driver.

This might be the best of non-ideal options. I will ask about implementing this on the Off-Topic forums.

Thanks for your suggestions.