GPL transition complete.

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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:18 am

Nash wrote:For the "Fmod somehow sounds better", this can be investigated with a spectrum analyzer. Enjay, can you provide a scenario where you can clearly distinguish the "richness" difference you describe between the 2 sound systems? If we can record that scene's audio and run them through an SA, it'll reveal better results.

For me, it's anywhere. Just firing up the game on MAP01, shooting the pistol and hearing the monster wake-up sounds is enough for me to hear it not sound as good. Lack of richness would be a reasnable description. I'm just about to go out for the day so I can't record anything right now but if you need me to, I can later on.


Also, I notice that when I start up with OpenAL I get an in-your-face yellow message telling me that my speaker device is being opened. Given that this isn't actually an error, any chance it could be toned down a bit please? (Maybe it's just overt in this debugging phase anyway?)
Spoiler:


I look out for brightly coloured messages whizzing past when I start the game as a clue to errors with whichever mod I might be working with and this just muddies the water for me.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Nash » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:23 am

Enjay wrote:I'm just about to go out for the day so I can't record anything right now but if you need me to, I can later on.


You don't need to... I can record them on my own but if you know of any situations (a particular WAD at a particular level/particular room, doing a particular thing in-game, what sound packs you have loaded, what particular sound settings you use, details like that) where it REALLY stands out to you, it'll help me do better measurements. :D

I'll see what I can find in the meantime using just the stock games and running around with both sound systems, see what data I can gather.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:30 am

That's not doable because the mixer is not in our sound code. That code only submits samples to the actual sound engine which then performs all the mixing.

My problem here is that my knowledge of sound mixing is very slim and the code doesn't tell me much, that applies to both backends, btw.

Concerning the richness of both backends, one thing I have noticed is that with equivalent volume settings, FMod tends to be a tad louder than OpenAL, that can fool a listener into perceiving a richer sound.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Nash » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:41 am

Graf Zahl wrote:FMod tends to be a tad louder than OpenAL, that can fool a listener into perceiving a richer sound.


Indeed. A root element in the whole "loudness wars" charade in the music industry. Typical listeners will like louder/crushed mixes better simply because it's louder. I haven't done any measurements yet but if all the issue between Fmod and OpenAL is loudness, then perhaps OpenAL's output gain can be tweaked to match Fmod's.

(For those interested in doing some light reading, this thing is known as the Fletcher-Munson curve. Your ear perceives frequencies differently depending on how "loud" a sound is. Bass frequencies always sound bigger, fatter, more intense when the whole sound is overall louder. This can fool you into thinking it sounds "better").
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby leodoom85 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:24 am

Graf Zahl wrote:
leodoom85 wrote:That's a surprising jump


Why?
3.0 contains a major addition, i.e. the entire software rendering advancements from QZDoom, plus the license change.
My plan has always been to make a major version bump when the license can be changed, not earlier.


Sorry for the late reply Graf. Well, that's because I thought that the sourceport would update like this...2.5, 2.6, 2.7 and so on, not jumping all the way to 3.0 :)
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:30 am

Major version bumps do not depend on the state of the minor version, they happen when some changes justify it.
Also, after 2.9 comes 2.10, not 3.0.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby leodoom85 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:36 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Major version bumps do not depend on the state of the minor version, they happen when some changes justify it.
Also, after 2.9 comes 2.10, not 3.0.


Got it. After all, you're the boss and you've already planned this jump. GZDoom will keep growing for the best.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:54 am

Doing this on my phone so forgive typos...

I am aware that openAl is quieter than fmod. I have tried to allow for that in my testing. It's a bit quieter for sounds and much quieter for music - both easily solved with the volume sliders. However, sound effects also sound more... I dunno i think richer does cover it - with fmod. The map01 start really illustratesvit quite well for me. The zombie wake up sounds seem more powerful with fmod.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Lord Misfit » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:16 am

Not sure if this was covered yet, but with FMod going out the door, is this going to affect NSF/SPC/GYM/etc music support, or will there be no real change to that? :o
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby wildweasel » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:19 am

As far as I can remember, those formats were never directly handled by FMod - FMod and OpenAL are output, and the emulated formats are handled by an input library like game-music-emu or DUMB.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:25 am

What will no longer work is if people used module formats for sound effects, but that was an issue I repeatedly warned about that it is system specific behavior that is not guaranteed to remain functional.

Concerning music formats, there was no requirement on FMod for any format whatsoever, they are all handled by dedicated streaming classes in higher level code - since last month that even applies to MP3 and OGG.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:02 pm

Just thinking about the sound richness thing, although I can hear a difference, it is quite subtle and who's to say which is correct? In other words, it's probably a very minor issue.

The changing-reverb-environment click is more of an issue though and it can sound really quite loud and bad sometimes - but it does vary mostly depending on how much ambient noise there is at the time (which is why my Waterlab map is quite a good test bed). For what it's worth, the video that I posted was captured using the nVidia GeForce Experience "share" capture system (used to be called Shadowplay I think). I'm not sure exactly where that intercepts the sounds but the video does sound pretty close to what I was hearing when I captured the video.
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby MartinHowe » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:03 pm

Despite the issues, this is a big step forward. Well done, GZ :D
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Lavender Moon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:57 pm

Awesome work, ya'll!

Enjay, regarding the audio, how does GZDoom+OpenAL compare to the audio from other source ports? Do any of them have sound comparable to FMOD EX to your ears?
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Re: GPL transition complete.

Postby Enjay » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:03 pm

Lavender Moon wrote:Enjay, regarding the audio, how does GZDoom+OpenAL compare to the audio from other source ports? Do any of them have sound comparable to FMOD EX to your ears?

Now that's a good question. I've just tried a few ports and the slightly thinner, (possibly less bassy?) sound that I was hearing with OpenAL seems more like what I get with most other ports. So perhaps the FMOD Ex sound is less like it is supposed to be (even if - to my ears - it sounds a bit better).
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