Regarding Brutal Doom

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Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby wildweasel » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:00 pm

Some topics are just too heated and controversial to be discussed sanely on internet forums, and the time has once again come to put the foot down, so to speak, about another such subject: Brutal Doom. No matter what the context, if someone brings up Brutal Doom, the rest of the forum cannot resist putting in their opinions about it, and it has lead to many an unpleasant argument.

Therefore, here are the (tentative) new rules regarding talking about Brutal Doom:
  • Please DO NOT bother project authors about compatibility with Brutal Doom unless the project is obviously intended to work with it. Why? Well, a thing about making mods for ZDoom is that special effects - blood particles, weapons, fatality animations, and whatever else - are implemented by outright replacing original Doom actors. Making this work between many mods often involves completely throwing out either the Brutal Doom version of an actor, or the other mod's version of the actor. Things like experience systems, custom damage types, dropped money and weapons, also work by replacing actors, and there is no easy way to have half of one actor and half of another without a lot of special attention.
  • Any threads about "what's so bad about Brutal Doom, anyway?" should not be posted, because we've been over the subject countless times and it's getting tired. The common consensus is that Brutal Doom itself might play "just fine," but from a coder's perspective it is a nightmare of spaghetti code and things that only half-work; from a player's perspective, it does a lot of things to game balance and aesthetics that not everybody enjoys; from the community's perspective, the mod carries too much drama with it to be worth continuing to discuss.
  • Sergeant_Mark_IV is still permanently banned. He will not return. He was an extremely toxic individual, having notably engaged in countless flamewars in which he conducted himself very poorly, as well as having embedded tasteless racist jokes in code comments, and most notably having encouraged a depressed user to commit suicide. He has been banned from many other parts of the Doom community for similar reasons, and our community should not encourage behavior like his.
  • Stop arguing about whether it's "right" to break Brutal Doom "support" in a given mod or TC project. For similar reasons to point #1, many authors of large-scale mods become quite frustrated when a user blindly tries to load a given mod alongside Brutal Doom, because this not only represents a glaring lack of understanding about how mods work, it also represents a lack of respect by the user in question when they complain that the mod is broken (and not Brutal Doom) as a result.
  • Threads specifically about Brutal Doom-derived projects such as Brutal Doom SE are still okay to post. Just don't drag other threads about unrelated projects off-topic.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby Devianteist » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:58 pm

It's a shame that something so insignificant could spawn such heat and requires regulation. I guess I'm just more simple-minded than a lot of people here, seeing as I don't/can't understand the fuss. :shrug:

At least something is being done to mitigate this issue. I wish you and the other mods good luck, WildWeasel.

P.S. Hopefully posting here is okay. :oops:
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby jpalomo » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:24 am

To add on to that first part: it should be OK to make your own compatibility patch and post it in its own thread. Just don't forget to provide credit when needed, and ask permission if you use resources that don't belong to you.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby PooshhMao » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:23 pm

SgtMarkIV has done way more to contribute to Doom's ongoing popularity than anyone else on this forum. His mod is being talked about in maintstream gaming publications. No other Doom mod can claim that. For someone not invested that much in the Doom community, it's obvious a whole lot of jealousy and general policital asshattery is involved. It's not just this forum either - I know several others where Brutal Doom is a taboo topic and people start to squirm uneasily whenever it's brought up.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby xenoxols » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:30 pm

This is exactly why the rule is here. So people don't say things like that. And people aren't jealous when their own work is being praised, no they're angry when somebody else is praised for it. If you don't believe me, then look at the SGTMKIV's posts and the ones surrounding it.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby phantombeta » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:48 pm

jealousy

Uhhh. No.
I play Brutal Doom myself and I'm in favour of this rule. I'm sick of people asking for BD compatibility in completely unrelated projects. Some even send death threats to the authors.
And we're not jealous of that resource-stealing asshole. He treats everyone badly. He reacts extremely bad to all criticism. Doesn't matter if it's valid, the only thing he doesn't react badly to is people praising his badly coded mod.
Yes, badly coded. I've looked at the code. It's the worst thing I've ever seen.
And yes, resource-stealing. He has stolen resources from a LOT of people here. He doesn't credit any fucking thing.
His mod was started on top of Beautiful Doom. He doesn't give ANY credit to Jekyll Grim Payne/zer0.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby Jimmy » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:52 pm

PooshhMao wrote:His mod is being talked about in maintstream gaming publications. No other Doom mod can claim that.

excuse me
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby wildweasel » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:09 pm

PooshhMao wrote:SgtMarkIV has done way more to contribute to Doom's ongoing popularity than anyone else on this forum. His mod is being talked about in maintstream gaming publications. No other Doom mod can claim that. For someone not invested that much in the Doom community, it's obvious a whole lot of jealousy and general policital asshattery is involved. It's not just this forum either - I know several others where Brutal Doom is a taboo topic and people start to squirm uneasily whenever it's brought up.

Neither jealousy nor political asshattery, my friend. It is an undisputed fact that Sgt Mark IV is one of the most toxic people this community has seen in years, so of course anything with his name on it is going to be a touchy subject. Want a history lesson? Go find and read the original Brutal Doom thread. Keep a running tally of how many people got warned or banned.

The fact is, Brutal Doom itself might be popular, and that's fine, but that popularity leads to a lot of inane and pointless questions by its fanbase that often serve only to irritate people who are making projects that should be considered completely different from Brutal Doom. I've seen people ask for Brutal Doom "support" in everything from Demon Steele (a mod that replaces absolutely everything, so Brutal support is patently pointless) to, of all things, Chex Quest. It's getting a little ridiculous by now.

But the rules here are in place to stop people from arguing about it ad nauseum, because it keeps coming up, people are getting sick of it, and I'm getting sick of having to steer unrelated threads back on topic.

(By the way, I believe I remember you from another forum that I'm a moderator for...while I'm not going to try to stir up cross-forum drama here, just please be aware that I know your reputation.)
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby PooshhMao » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:26 pm

Woah.

"We suppress information here. Also, have a veiled threat".

I feel welcome already.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby Project Dark Fox » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:26 pm

PooshhMao wrote:Woah.

"We suppress information here. Also, have a veiled threat".

I feel welcome already.

Seriously? You're gonna be like that?
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby edward850 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:50 pm

I like how the Brutal Doom dedicated fanbase of Brutal Doom have arrived to show the exact reason why this ruling had to be made in the first place. You lurk here for two years, and then tell, or rather demand, that we appreciate Brutal Doom for "making Doom popular". And then complain when everyone negatively responds to your thread shitting.

For someone not invested in the Doom Community yourself, you sure do seem to think you can act like a part of it.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby wildweasel » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:08 pm

PooshhMao wrote:Woah.

"We suppress information here. Also, have a veiled threat".

I feel welcome already.

I did not edit your post or issue you any warnings. I simply told you why the rule is in place. Brutal Doom discussion is not being suppressed or censored, we're just getting tired of it showing up EVERYWHERE. If you want to continue being like this, though, be my guest...
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby PooshhMao » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:15 pm

Look, I don't even care about all of this. I just registered on this forum to start a thread for a Doom project I'm working on and would like to share.
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby wildweasel » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:18 pm

PooshhMao wrote:Look, I don't even care about all of this. I just registered on this forum to start a thread for a Doom project I'm working on and would like to share.

So why did you post here?
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Re: Regarding Brutal Doom

Postby Ghastly » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:26 pm

No information is being suppressed, just those of us who have been in this community for the last eight-plus years have seen these same arguments and shitstorms so many times that people should be directed to those original arguments and shitstorms that still exist and are archived on these forums rather than regurgitate them all over again for the umpteenth time.

I should point out, you came here basically accusing us of being jealous and wanting that mod covered up, but nobody here is outright being hostile. We only told you to look elsewhere for there reasons why we have that attitude toward that mod. Any insults and hostility (Ignore Edward :v ) at this point are coming from you.
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