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Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:10 pm
by Enjay
I like the idea. I like the animated gifs. I got quite excited. Then watched the video. I'm not sure what, perhaps it's that kinetic correctness that Blox mentioned, but there is just something a little bit odd looking going on. Perhaps I'm just not used to them after watching the same jerky animations for 20 years. However, in the case of the the smooth weapons I was instantly like "yup, that's better".

There is something about the demon mouth opening sequence. The new intermediate frame is somehow very obvious. He seems to open his mouth in two separate steps rather than a single smooth action. Perhaps that frame should be given a shorter duration or perhaps frames either side of the mid-open one are required (perhaps instead of the mid-open one).

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:07 pm
by GooberMan
Sergeant_Mark_IV wrote:This video will speak for itself.

You're right. It's the same kind of horrible "smoothness" that HDTVs try to sell themselves with these days with their frame interpolation post-processing features.

And you know what? Short of redoing every frame from scratch, it's always going to be a problem. The Doom sprites - in particular the ones that are photos of clay/latex models - will never be the correct base to interpolate any kind of smooth animation from, even with flow detection algorithms or anything else fancy like that.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:21 pm
by Sergeant_Mark_IV
GooberMan wrote:
Sergeant_Mark_IV wrote:This video will speak for itself.

You're right. It's the same kind of horrible "smoothness" that HDTVs try to sell themselves with these days with their frame interpolation post-processing features.


I don't get your joke.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:08 pm
by armymen12002003
Mr. Chris wrote:You have my support on this one too.


i second this

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:09 pm
by Sergeant_Mark_IV
I worked on the Imp's sprites. Is it looking any better?

Left one is the older, right one is the newer.
Image


Enjay wrote:I like the idea. I like the animated gifs. I got quite excited. Then watched the video. I'm not sure what, perhaps it's that kinetic correctness that Blox mentioned, but there is just something a little bit odd looking going on. Perhaps I'm just not used to them after watching the same jerky animations for 20 years. However, in the case of the the smooth weapons I was instantly like "yup, that's better".

There is something about the demon mouth opening sequence. The new intermediate frame is somehow very obvious. He seems to open his mouth in two separate steps rather than a single smooth action. Perhaps that frame should be given a shorter duration or perhaps frames either side of the mid-open one are required (perhaps instead of the mid-open one).


Yup. I already reduced the duration of the closing frames and it looked better.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:54 pm
by Boreas249
Looks good to me! Still a tad wobbly but... it's an imp. Mayb they should have a little bounce in their step of sorts.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:17 pm
by esselfortium
Looks cool, I like it. The idea definitely has potential.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:40 pm
by BouncyTEM
The improved imp looks great to me.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:15 pm
by Lance
I really hope you're thinking of implementing this to Brutal Doom. =D

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:01 am
by GooberMan
Sergeant_Mark_IV wrote:I don't get your joke.

Correct. There's not a joke to get.

You might call it smooth, but I look at it and see linearly interpolated frames based on both low resolution source material and source material that was captured using stop motion techniques. As a result it starts to cross that boundary from "acceptable at low resolution and sample rate" to "really highlighting the flaws of the original method and causing a distraction".

Some people love it. I personally turn off frame interpolation on my tv because I can't stand it. As a result, your video and gifs to me does not speak "OMG cool" but "turn it off" - obviously not your intention, but it will get that reaction from some people.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:50 am
by insightguy
If this is gonna be released with the improved version of per's smooth weapons enhanced. we may as well just call it smooth doom/sandpaper doom... Are you gonna work on the torches and other vanilla doom objects?

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:50 am
by Sergeant_Mark_IV
Gooberman, if your post was not a joke, then I assume that it was an insult. There is no "fancy interpolation techniques" here. All of these sprites are getting edited one by one, using basically the same techniques that any spriter around uses to make new sprites.

Image
If you think that I used a morphing image program to automatically get this, then you are offending me. If you don't like the project and has no criticism to provide, that's fine, but please keep your pointless posts out of here. Thanks.



insightguy wrote:If this is gonna be released with the improved version of per's smooth weapons enhanced. we may as well just call it smooth doom/sandpaper doom... Are you gonna work on the torches and other vanilla doom objects?


Yes. For torches and general fire stuff, I'm still not sure if I will use Beautiful Doom's smooth torch sprites, or Brutal Doom's particles.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:58 am
by MG_Man
Sergeant_Mark_IV wrote:Yes. For torches and general fire stuff, I'm still not sure if I will use Beautiful Doom's smooth torch sprites, or Brutal Doom's particles.

I'd go for the sprites. Using particles doesn't really fit in with the goal for the project.


Anyway, this actually looks pretty good! It's kinda weird how the new Imp animation pauses with every step, but I'm sure you'll iron it out eventually.

I'm not sure I dig the alternate death animations though (and the blood but that's probably not included with this I bet), but that's probably just ol' crummy purist me.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:01 am
by Scripten
Sergeant_Mark_IV wrote:Gooberman, if your post was not a joke, then I assume that it was an insult. There is no "fancy interpolation techniques" here. All of these sprites are getting edited one by one, using basically the same techniques that any spriter around uses to make new sprites.


I think you're taking that way too harshly. What he's saying is that the original animations for the monsters only worked because there were limited frames. When you add more, the flaws inherent to the original sprites come out more. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, too. Not to say that your work isn't good, but if you really want to make a higher quality animation project shine, you'll have to replace a lot of the original sprites with ones that are more suited to "real" animation techniques.

There's a term used in animation called "keyframes." Essentially, they're frames that, if you removes any interpolation, would still convey the original intent of the animation. Doom's keyframes, to be frank are not very good, due almost entirely to the nature of the technology used to create them. So the criticism isn't necessarily of your work itself, but the nature of what you're basing it on.

TL;DR - If you want this project to really look good, you'll have to redraw all the sprites, even the originals.

Re: High Quality Animations Project

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:14 am
by Sergeant_Mark_IV
MG_Man wrote:Anyway, this actually looks pretty good! It's kinda weird how the new Imp animation pauses with every step, but I'm sure you'll iron it out eventually.

I'm not sure I dig the alternate death animations though (and the blood but that's probably not included with this I bet), but that's probably just ol' crummy purist me.


The imp "pauses" with every step because its an attempt to make a more realistic movement. It worked with the Zombieman and Demon, but seems like its not as good with imps. I will remove.

I have plans to keep the blood and add to the "smooth feel", but the blood will be further polished. Anyway, it can be completely removed by deleting the DECORATE.Particles lump without affecting anything else.



Scripten wrote:
Sergeant_Mark_IV wrote:Gooberman, if your post was not a joke, then I assume that it was an insult. There is no "fancy interpolation techniques" here. All of these sprites are getting edited one by one, using basically the same techniques that any spriter around uses to make new sprites.


I think you're taking that way too harshly. What he's saying is that the original animations for the monsters only worked because there were limited frames. When you add more, the flaws inherent to the original sprites come out more. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, too. Not to say that your work isn't good, but if you really want to make a higher quality animation project shine, you'll have to replace a lot of the original sprites with ones that are more suited to "real" animation techniques.

There's a term used in animation called "keyframes." Essentially, they're frames that, if you removes any interpolation, would still convey the original intent of the animation. Doom's keyframes, to be frank are not very good, due almost entirely to the nature of the technology used to create them. So the criticism isn't necessarily of your work itself, but the nature of what you're basing it on.

TL;DR - If you want this project to really look good, you'll have to redraw all the sprites, even the originals.


I know that some stuff need to be redrawn. E.g.: The monsters feet positions were made with their feet always on the ground. I have to edit that. The imp for example, I had to edit his legs a lot.