Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.10.0 Beta]

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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Kyle873 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:11 pm

Frozenwolf150 wrote:* The skill and stat menus need an undo / cancel option (unless I missed it) similar to other RPG mods. This would let you see the effects of point investments before actually spending skill points.
* I'm not sure having a pull-down shop that you can summon any time you want makes a lot of sense. Maybe it should go at the end of every mission instead? Speaking of the shop, the selling option doesn't seem to be implemented. (Edit: I was apparently doing it wrong, you can definitely use the Super Shotgun in Doom 1.)
* Documentation. The ZIP file should include a readme, which could simply include content from the OP, as well as list which features still need to be implemented as of the current version. I've repeatedly run into the issue of spending skill points or money on things I can't use because they're not implemented, like spell abilities and frag grenades.
* I've noticed it's possible to pick up, and therefore waste, items that you don't need. For example, it's possible to pick up medkits despite being at full health, or energy orbs despite being at full energy.


- I was thinking about this, I just need to think of a good, proper way to do it without making it too exploitable
- This is an option, it's currently on because I haven't done much work on the Outpost map yet, where the shop will esentially be moved to
- I actually have a README file inside of the pk3, I honestly just assumed nobody really reads it :p, it mostly just has notes that I've made for myself and such. The first post is horribly out-of-date and I'm going to need to update it at some point
- These items use the Heretic/Hexen style inventory, so use the brackets and enter to select and use an item. Also, you can set quick health/armor/ammo keys in the key config menu to use them faster, since the Hexen inventory can get a bit clunky with many items after a while
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Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Vigilante » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:42 pm

Ammo price seems ok now, must have been bad math on my part.
Monsters mass seem pretty low even with starting character (str=0), they fly back a lot when shot. Mostly annoying in hard difficulty mode, where a DB shotgun shot throws an enhanced zombie far enough that the following shots of the same weapon are inefficient.
I wonder about the rank level, why is separate from the xp-based levels ?
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Kyle873 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:46 pm

Vigilante wrote:Ammo price seems ok now, must have been bad math on my part.
Monsters mass seem pretty low even with starting character (str=0), they fly back a lot when shot. Mostly annoying in hard difficulty mode, where a DB shotgun shot throws an enhanced zombie far enough that the following shots of the same weapon are inefficient.
I wonder about the rank level, why is separate from the xp-based levels ?


The monsters masses are their default, I suppose I could double them or something to account for the heavy knockback of high-damage hits.

Currently, Rank determines the payout you get every 5 minutes and your discount at the shop. Still thinking of other things to tie it in with.

edit:
As I've learned first hand, loading an old save with updated files (particularly Scripts) can cause a whole ton of problems. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff happen when loading old saves with new updates I've made. That would be my guess as to why your shop prices were originally messed up with the Quick Ammo command.

double edit:
Furthermore, I think a good way to mitigate this issue to a degree would be to be able to "save" your character between games. No idea if that's even possible, though.
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Frozenwolf150 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:45 pm

Kyle873 wrote:- I was thinking about this, I just need to think of a good, proper way to do it without making it too exploitable

I suppose I'm more accustomed to mods like the Korax Mod for Hexen, where leaving the menu cancels automatically and you have to select "OK" to confirm the stat upgrades. It's not a big deal really, as one can always save before allocation.
- I actually have a README file inside of the pk3, I honestly just assumed nobody really reads it :p, it mostly just has notes that I've made for myself and such. The first post is horribly out-of-date and I'm going to need to update it at some point

I'm not using any modding tools myself, so I assumed it didn't exist when I didn't see it in the zip file. Has anyone created a page for this mod on the ZDoom wiki? If not, that's another possibility for documentation.
- These items use the Heretic/Hexen style inventory, so use the brackets and enter to select and use an item. Also, you can set quick health/armor/ammo keys in the key config menu to use them faster, since the Hexen inventory can get a bit clunky with many items after a while

All right, I didn't notice that. ZDoom does have key assignments for quick items, but I didn't know the icon indicated an active inventory item.
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby karmakazi » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:33 am

Still thinking of other things to tie it in with.

Perhaps having the rank as a "multiplier" of the stats so that even if they use the old stat system (which seems excessive compared to tiered) and spam certain stats, they have to wait to catch up in rank before it becomes "gamebreaking" so as to better preserve the ratio. Basically 10 points to a buck private would mean more to a master seargent. Some of the higher end armors and medkits seem like they have a large benefit, so perhaps their effective use could come with rank as well. Inventory size could also be scaled to rank? Just throwing stuff out there.
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Kyle873 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:09 am

karmakazi wrote:
Still thinking of other things to tie it in with.

so perhaps their effective use could come with rank as well. Inventory size could also be scaled to rank? Just throwing stuff out there.


Unfortunately, none of those can be done due to limitations in ACS/DECORATE. The inventory size would be great for capacity, but it'd be an absolute bitch to do. I'd have to have every item default to a max size of 1, then do checks every tic to make sure the player isn't over capacity in any of their items based on the stat. It'd be a lot of hassle for little gain IMO, and inconvenient to have to keep chucking items around because you don't have the capacity to carry them all.

Frozenwolf150 wrote:
Kyle873 wrote:- I was thinking about this, I just need to think of a good, proper way to do it without making it too exploitable

I suppose I'm more accustomed to mods like the Korax Mod for Hexen, where leaving the menu cancels automatically and you have to select "OK" to confirm the stat upgrades. It's not a big deal really, as one can always save before allocation.
- I actually have a README file inside of the pk3, I honestly just assumed nobody really reads it :p, it mostly just has notes that I've made for myself and such. The first post is horribly out-of-date and I'm going to need to update it at some point

I'm not using any modding tools myself, so I assumed it didn't exist when I didn't see it in the zip file. Has anyone created a page for this mod on the ZDoom wiki? If not, that's another possibility for documentation.
- These items use the Heretic/Hexen style inventory, so use the brackets and enter to select and use an item. Also, you can set quick health/armor/ammo keys in the key config menu to use them faster, since the Hexen inventory can get a bit clunky with many items after a while

All right, I didn't notice that. ZDoom does have key assignments for quick items, but I didn't know the icon indicated an active inventory item.


It's on my todo list to add some sort of way to "respec" your stats, just haven't thought of a way to do so yet.

I'm going to keep the README file outside of the pk3, because I always forget not everyone has modding tools or knows how to even access pk3 files directly to begin with.

edit:
Just a note to everyone that Strength past 100 is PROBABLY broken because i tweaked the way it works, I now need to write 800 DECORATE entries to compensate for all the modifiers that can be applied, and there's NO WAY IN HELL I'm doing all that. I'm writing a quick program to do it for me, will update when it's fixed.

Fixed

I also included the C# source in the archive that probably saved me from getting carpal tunnel, just for the hell of it. :P
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Vigilante » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:32 am

I'll be careful to not load games from older mod version now.
Would it be possible to include a high xp-giving item that can be spawned from the console (never created by the game) ? It would help a lot for playtesting the balance after the starting part.

Maybe I miss something, but it seems the player can never increase rank without levelling, or level without gaining ranks, so the rank number seems redundant to me - but the idea of showing "military ranks" is still very good for immersion.

About the shop, one option would be that the "payday" event additionally gives the player a charge of a stackable inventory item that performs a "warp to outpost". It means the player could visit the shop at most once per cumulated 5 minutes of play, and using the inventory so it no longer requires a specific menu or key.

About shop discount and money growth in general, I feel this should rather be related to a player stat (or passive skill), so it adds a development choice : character who invests in it can buy more (human) equipment vs being physically stronger/thougher, and the balance should be tuned to try make them equally viable options.
My preference would be that no equippable item should affect this stat, so as to avoid a situation that I always dislike in RPG : "Before shopping, equip all items that lower prices".
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby karmakazi » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:52 am

Two quick notes, I started using totally unfiltered gfx to evoke that old school feel, and its awesome, but the black enemies are nigh invisible. Im sure that may be a concern for those using zdoom. A less dire and more cosmetic issue is that the cool ass glowing eyes are not present in the unique monsters, imagine how cool that would be with the black ones?

Second, the game is now treating dropped items as part of the overall count, and its fairly popular to put enemies behind bars, or in otherwise making their drops out of reach, making 100% completion technically impossible without noclip.
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Frozenwolf150 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:29 am

Vigilante wrote:"Shop anywhere" is useful for example on Plutonia, I've started a game on "hard" and depending on luck, sometimes there's just not enough ammo in the map to kill the boosted monsters. Buying ammo becomes vital to press forward. If it does not seem to make sense, you can imagine they warp items to you by using the teleport technology.

Yes, I can see the reasoning behind that. I've only been playtesting this in Ultimate Doom, the first two episodes of which are ridiculously easy compared to Final Doom.

I have a stupid question. How exactly do you access the rest of the shop? I can only see the weapons page for some reason, and none of the scroll or movement keys will take me to the pages for ammo, runes, items, etc. I know a "quick ammo" key was implemented in a very recent update, but I know I'm missing something.


Another unrelated observation, but the skill levels don't seem to be implemented yet either. Putting another level into "Repair Armor" for example only raises the EP cost, but not the benefits.

There's also a weird glitch in the stats menu. It's possible to select an invisible stat above "Defense" AND waste points on it. I don't think this was supposed to happen. :?
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Vigilante » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:16 am

The keys for strafe left and strafe right navigate the shop pages (well I have cursor keys for them, and they work)
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Frozenwolf150 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:29 pm

Vigilante wrote:The keys for strafe left and strafe right navigate the shop pages (well I have cursor keys for them, and they work)

I tried that and nothing happened. Do I need to use a CVAR to create the keybinding, or edit the .INI file?
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Vigilante » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:12 pm

I've just re-checked, and the Shop menu will use any key you assign to "turn right/left" or "strafe right/left"... normally the same keys you use to navigate accessories, shields, skill upgrade...
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Vigilante » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:43 pm

By the way, a line special can change the difficulty of future maps:
http://zdoom.org/ref2/specials/changeskill.html
Could be used in the outpost, so several "teleporters" lead to different difficulties.
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Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby Kyle873 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:54 pm

Vigilante wrote:I'll be careful to not load games from older mod version now.
Would it be possible to include a high xp-giving item that can be spawned from the console (never created by the game) ? It would help a lot for playtesting the balance after the starting part.

Maybe I miss something, but it seems the player can never increase rank without levelling, or level without gaining ranks, so the rank number seems redundant to me - but the idea of showing "military ranks" is still very good for immersion.

About the shop, one option would be that the "payday" event additionally gives the player a charge of a stackable inventory item that performs a "warp to outpost". It means the player could visit the shop at most once per cumulated 5 minutes of play, and using the inventory so it no longer requires a specific menu or key.

About shop discount and money growth in general, I feel this should rather be related to a player stat (or passive skill), so it adds a development choice : character who invests in it can buy more (human) equipment vs being physically stronger/thougher, and the balance should be tuned to try make them equally viable options.
My preference would be that no equippable item should affect this stat, so as to avoid a situation that I always dislike in RPG : "Before shopping, equip all items that lower prices".


Use "pukename AddXP <Amount>" in the console.

Well, finding secrets will increase rank but not XP. Rank also takes longer to level, the rank cap is quite a bit higher then the XP cap.

Not a bad idea, but that'll happen once the Outpost has reached a more complete state.

I don't think this'll really be possible without re-doing the entire money drop system. Having Rank give you a discount was my main stopgap to this issue, at least, for now. If you really need money, you can let monsters respawn, or, whenever I get to it, there will be some sort of Arena in the Outpost where you can win money and prizes.

karmakazi wrote:Two quick notes, I started using totally unfiltered gfx to evoke that old school feel, and its awesome, but the black enemies are nigh invisible. Im sure that may be a concern for those using zdoom. A less dire and more cosmetic issue is that the cool ass glowing eyes are not present in the unique monsters, imagine how cool that would be with the black ones?

Second, the game is now treating dropped items as part of the overall count, and its fairly popular to put enemies behind bars, or in otherwise making their drops out of reach, making 100% completion technically impossible without noclip.


The strange thing is, I noticed this too, and by all accounts, the glowmaps SHOULD be getting applied to the variant monsters as well. Maybe the issue is that the self-lighting from the Auras they have is making it unnoticeable.

I'll see what I can do about this, AFAIK ZDoom only supports the Fuzzy RenderStyle, which I'm already using in he first place.

Which items in particular? I haven't added the +COUNTITEM flag to anything that I'd think would drop in a place you couldn't get to.

Frozenwolf150 wrote:
Vigilante wrote:"Shop anywhere" is useful for example on Plutonia, I've started a game on "hard" and depending on luck, sometimes there's just not enough ammo in the map to kill the boosted monsters. Buying ammo becomes vital to press forward. If it does not seem to make sense, you can imagine they warp items to you by using the teleport technology.

Yes, I can see the reasoning behind that. I've only been playtesting this in Ultimate Doom, the first two episodes of which are ridiculously easy compared to Final Doom.

I have a stupid question. How exactly do you access the rest of the shop? I can only see the weapons page for some reason, and none of the scroll or movement keys will take me to the pages for ammo, runes, items, etc. I know a "quick ammo" key was implemented in a very recent update, but I know I'm missing something.


Another unrelated observation, but the skill levels don't seem to be implemented yet either. Putting another level into "Repair Armor" for example only raises the EP cost, but not the benefits.

There's also a weird glitch in the stats menu. It's possible to select an invisible stat above "Defense" AND waste points on it. I don't think this was supposed to happen. :?


Strange. Sure you didn't load an old save?

I'm redoing those skills to heal/repair based on stats and not fixed amounts.

oh god, I thought I caught all of those issues before I updated, thanks.

Vigilante wrote:By the way, a line special can change the difficulty of future maps:
http://zdoom.org/ref2/specials/changeskill.html
Could be used in the outpost, so several "teleporters" lead to different difficulties.


Interesting, I'll check this out. Thanks.
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Kyle873's Doom RPG Mod [0.8 Beta]

Postby karmakazi » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:00 pm

I had to pick up a drain item dropped off by a caged imp by clipping before i got 100%.
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