Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby iLikeTheUDK » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:58 pm

I think there really should be a use of physics simulation. Try to make several parts use softbody, and use liquid particle simulation for the blood. Then render the whole thing as video at about 3-10 frames per second, converting each frame in the resulting video into a picture.
As for the alias at the edges of the sprites, you should either use an anti-aliasing filter or do it the good old way - Pixel-level Editing! Long, but still kinda fun. Also, the mask color for most sprites would rather be either dark pink (as in Doom and Wolf3D) or light blue/cyan (as in Heretic and HeXen).
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby SalmonGod » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:41 pm

iLikeTheUDK wrote:I think there really should be a use of physics simulation. Try to make several parts use softbody, and use liquid particle simulation for the blood. Then render the whole thing as video at about 3-10 frames per second, converting each frame in the resulting video into a picture.
As for the alias at the edges of the sprites, you should either use an anti-aliasing filter or do it the good old way - Pixel-level Editing! Long, but still kinda fun. Also, the mask color for most sprites would rather be either dark pink (as in Doom and Wolf3D) or light blue/cyan (as in Heretic and HeXen).


Soft-Body and particle simulation is too much for me. I know a little bit about working with particles, but not much and that was years ago. I do consider myself a generalist when it comes to digital art, but I lean heavily towards the artistic side of the things rather than the technical. When it comes to 3d, I'm more a digital sculptor than anything else.

I have plenty of tricks up my sleeve, though. Half the reason ZBrush is my favored software is because it provides so many awesome workarounds. For instance, I can emulate a particle effect by sculpting a shape similar to a particle container, grow a bunch of custom fibers on it, make the shape invisible, and I end up with something very similar to a particle effect.

Rendering is the one part of 3d where there's just no way around the technical stuff. There's several dozen variables and you have to know exactly what each of them means, how they all work together, and usually a bunch of archaic hidden settings voodoo. This is why when I first posted the Cacodemon on here, a whole bunch of people piled in with the "3d always looks plastic" comment... because more sophisticated rendering is wizardry that a small portion of artists have the patience to learn.

As an example, here's the guide to SSS rendering that I mentioned in the previous post.

Once I get the render set-up worked out, though, it's done. I can just hit the render button from then on. As for animation, it's pretty easy for something like Doom. I can save viewpoints on a model, one for every angle of view that the game supports, and then render each angle for every frame in each stop-motion sequence.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby iLikeTheUDK » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:47 pm

I can understand all that geeky gibberish. Show me a pic of the rendering settings and I'll do the best I can to tell you what everything means.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby iLikeTheUDK » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:00 pm

SalmonGod wrote:When it comes to 3d, I'm more a digital sculptor than anything else.

I have plenty of tricks up my sleeve, though. Half the reason ZBrush is my favored software is because it provides so many awesome workarounds. For instance, I can emulate a particle effect by sculpting a shape similar to a particle container, grow a bunch of custom fibers on it, make the shape invisible, and I end up with something very similar to a particle effect.


Well, if you think you can do the blood effects well, go ahead. LET THE CARNAGE BEGIN!
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby SalmonGod » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:05 pm

iLikeTheUDK wrote:I can understand all that geeky gibberish. Show me a pic of the rendering settings and I'll do the best I can to tell you what everything means.


It's not so much the knowing what stuff means so much as all the arcane stuff like X setting isn't compatible with Y setting and Z setting doesn't function if you don't enable this other thing that you would never guess is related.

For instance, I didn't know until yesterday that SSS rendering doesn't work in zbrush unless you assign SSS to a light and then leave that light turned off. It makes no sense. I would have never figured that out without looking it up, and looking stuff up is never easy when it comes to 3d.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby Zero X. Diamond » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:14 am

Marnetmar wrote:
Blox wrote:Trust me when I say that it's the best way of doing it.


It looks terrible ingame. TERRIBLE.

Except it doesn't if you know what you're doing? Tell me that Duke Nukem 3D's monsters look TERRIBLE and I'll tell you to get new eyes. Because guess what? High-poly pre-rendered models. They can look just fine if you don't render them looking like they're made of goddamn plastic.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby Marnetmar » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:06 am

Zero X. Diamond wrote:
Marnetmar wrote:
Blox wrote:Trust me when I say that it's the best way of doing it.


It looks terrible ingame. TERRIBLE.

Except it doesn't if you know what you're doing? Tell me that Duke Nukem 3D's monsters look TERRIBLE and I'll tell you to get new eyes. Because guess what? High-poly pre-rendered models. They can look just fine if you don't render them looking like they're made of goddamn plastic.


This does not look good.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby Paul » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:27 am

Zero X. Diamond wrote:They can look just fine if you don't render them looking like they're made of goddamn plastic.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby Marnetmar » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:31 am

The problem isn't that they look like plastic, the problem is that the style completely clashes. Either make a sprite from that model in the proper style or throw it out.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby SalmonGod » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:49 am

Marnetmar wrote:The problem isn't that they look like plastic, the problem is that the style completely clashes. Either make a sprite from that model in the proper style or throw it out.


Of course it's going to clash when it's the only part of the game that's been updated. Any one hi-resolution object in a low-resolution environment is going to look out of place, no matter how it's done. Try to imagine everything similarly updated. Otherwise, the style of that Cacodemon is a direct copy of the original with nothing added but extra surface detail, because adding a ton of pixels that are nothing but solid color looks stupid. I know. I tried it. If you just don't like 3d rendered artwork, I can understand, but the "proper style" criticism is lost on me.

I'm not just trying to be defensive or snarky here, either. If you actually think some improvement can be made, I might agree and you might get what you want. If you just plain don't like it, then I have nothing else to say.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby Average » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:01 am

Just wanted to say a quick word.

I play Doom at a low resolution (320x200) as I just like the 'lively' pixelly look but I thought I'd try these sprites just for a bit of fun and I have to say that they actually look quite nice played at my chosen screen resolution. I know that's not really the point of hi-res sprites but I really like the look of this now! It makes a nice alternative to R667 monster packs that's for sure.

Keep up the good work - I'm looking forward to see this expand and grow. :)
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby thief666 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:37 am

@Average - hey nice to hear that hi-res works in low-res:)


@Marnetmar -

1) did you tried this cacodemon in-game? its very different experience contemplating screenshot and seeing this "alive" (link on first page, for gzdoom)

2) Cacodemon is bunch of internal organs melted together. sticky, WET, disgusting. WET- will reflect light as hell - a bit plasticky look is completely fitting this sprite - again - check that in -game.

3) When you use HIgh res textures and lightmaps suddenly doom sprites seems to be lacking "depth" and lighting. if drawing and rendering could meet half-way that would be perfect - which is actually planned more or less.

IMP is waiting for editors:) (look previous page for details)
Spoiler:
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby Blox » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:24 am

Marnetmar wrote:The problem isn't that they look like plastic, the problem is that the style completely clashes.

It only clashes because it's a shitty render. It's fine for show-off purposes, but pre-rendered sprites require something way fancier than that. (Again, see the hydra for a fine, old example.)
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby .+:icytux:+. » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:58 am

About the cacodemon render. Its much about the "shitty render" part. If you tweak the colors and contrast to be more in style with the original sprite. you get a much better result:
Image
Although the result is much better. It still needs touch-up by hand. However I can agree that this process will make it less of a pain and gives quite a good base. But if it would be possible, getting the material of pretty much the whole caco to be slimy instead of plastic would also quicken up the process more. -> less dark shadows but still a shiny kind of look. and the horns and teeth to look less like stone and more shiny and even closer to metal like as in how they look in the original caco.
The eye, and the inside of the mouth is a part that really needs by hand touchup.

The model's chin and teeth could really be improved though. the underside of the mouth, the chin, looks quite off and not in the same style as the rest of the model, and the teeth look really wimpy and scarce, should be more beefy teeth.
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Re: Doom sprites HD (8x) version v03 released

Postby RV-007 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:09 pm

Just repaint and there you go, aesthetic consistency. I didn't know that these sprites were done by paint, which is cool. I don't care for blurriness then. Imagine, doom painted. If you have like, different paint designs, just have the actor to morph to a paint set and then you have your variety of doomimps and so on.
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