Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Virtue » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:30 am

read "Aliens Vs Predator: Prey" (the written version not the comic) then come back to me and say they dont belong in the same universe. I'm not going off the AvP film franchises here, they can go and get fucked :) the books is where its at, plus, its a seperate wad

EDIT: I couldnt find a better LV426 to work on btw...
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Tragos » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:01 pm

Enjay wrote:
Tragos wrote:I'm very much a purist when it comes to Aliens, anything to do with Predator does not belong within the same universe. Dark Horse should have never gave FOX the idea, now it seems though as the two are merged like conjoined twins.

I'm sure then that you have read the original idea behind the aliens; that they were a much more sentient race with their own reproduction pyramid-like temples (with hieroglyphs/writing etc on the walls) and complicated reproduction process. The human crew were originally to have found one of these temples, broken the seal (similar to breaking through the groovy laser-through-dry-ice effect in then actual movie) and this would have awoken the reproduction process. Inside the temple would have been a sacrificial altar table (with blood channels etc) and hieroglyphs depicting the aliens impregnating hosts and showing the reproduction process. The point being that their reproduction was complicated and difficult, relying on a host, and therefore their culture was built around the reproduction process.

The idea was primarily dropped because to have the astronauts discover and investigate the alien reproduction temple would have meant a lot of time (and money) spent with very little action and not moving the plot along much at all. So, the egg room was added to the space-jockey ship and the rest was simply deleted - also allowing the reduction of the aliens to a much simpler "hive mind with a queen" type of species in later movies. The only bit of evidence from the original idea that made it into the movie was near the end. Despite having been a fast, ruthless, unbeatable killing machine for nearly the entire movie, when Ripley meets the alien near the end and flushes it into space, it is a tired, docile creature that puts up almost no resistance. Why? Because it had completed its reproduction process (the captain had been impregnated) and its job was now done (note, no alien queen involved, no hive mentality etc etc).

So, anyway, yeah, I agree. The alien skull in Predator 2 was an acceptable cameo and in-joke (IMO) but the whole "OMG you can't have aliens without predators" thing pisses me off, especially as this once complex idea of a reasonably advanced civilisation was reduced to them being little more than captive dumb pets and ravening almost mindless beasts: the playthings of the Predators in AvP. As a general rule, I dislike crossover stories of this kind anyway. They always boil down to geek fanboy wank-fests of "OMG Who would win X or Y" (and, of course, the question is never even fully answered anyway) and most of the time the art style, story lines etc etc clash horribly.

Another thing about the early Alien ideas that I liked (as a by the way), and it was something that always confused me from the films, was the appearance of the alien ship/biology. It always confused me that the space jockey clearly had the same basic "biomechanical" biology/technology as the aliens yet was supposed to be a separate species, alien to the planet, that had been infected by the aliens. Then I found out the the original idea was to use three artists: one for the human technology; one for the aliens; one for the infected alien ship. There were even initial designs for the infected ship and its crew (apparently it looked a bit like a giant space lobster and IIRC the crew were dwarf-like). However, for reasons that I forget (lack of artist availability?, lack of time?, lack of money?, not wanting a giant space lobster crewed by dwarfs?) Giger ended up doing both the aliens and the infected ship, thereby confusing the hell out of me for many years. :P


The Aliens do not need a Queen to start a brood. Even though this was explained later on and after the fact, it still manages to tie everything together quite nicely. In Alien there was a cut scene where two of the crewmembers Dallas and Brett where taken captive by the lone Alien warrior. Brett was slowly being turned into an egg, while the other was to end up a host for the new face hugger. Which one could argue could be a Queen? In the absence of the alien queen, the alien can also cocoon it's prey, so he can eat it later. Much like the space jockey fossilized in the alien ship. They should have left this in because it explains the Aliens reproductive cycle. The Xenomorphs ability to "rapidly evolve" remains one of their greatest assets for survival. The aliens can also place their victims in a biomass which slowly transform it's prey into a Alien. The mistake your making Enjay is including all the awful ideas surrounding AVP. Giger's art is truly dark and fantastic, the Egyptian styled imagery that would later be woven into the fabric of the universe is a clever idea. However without that much of the story falls apart completely. Is AVP really supposed to take place before Alien? Proving that humans knew about the existence of the Alien race long before Ripley ever came across them? In Aliens it seems the company may have knew about the Xenomorph presence, but unless it could be explained definitively I don't believe it should be attempted.

The similarity between the space jokey technology and the biomechanical appearance of the Aliens has often led to speculation that the Xeno's where an engineered bio weapon by the unknown race. This is likely true, however I love how they keep the keeps idea’s surrounding their origins a mystery. If they ever answer this question or try to tie Predators into the whole mythos, it will be the biggest FAIL in the history of science fiction. Far worse, even than each of the Star Wars prequels. As for the Giant lobster you mentioned, what you are talking about the debate during the post production of ALIEN between Ridley Scott had with his writers and artists. They wanted to do a movie where the monster did not appear as just a man in a suit. I own a replica of the original Xenomorph print. While looking as various sources of material for inspiration they came across Giger’s work and decided they wanted “This” to be their monster.

Much of what you see in ALIENS was based off Cameroons earlier work on Galaxy of Terror. Which he would rather not be accredited with. It is easy to see how ideas from Galaxy of Terror made their way into Aliens. Some people hated the idea of the Queen, but I personally like the direction Cameroon went with this. The truth is the Xenomoprhs have a million different ways to reproduce. They can lay dormant for centuries if necessary. The Aliens franchise never needed the Predator tied into it. The original Predator was great in it's own respect, but in the grand scheme of things the idea of the Predator is a complete failure. Humanity has all the technology and skill needed to defeat any size army of them. While the Xenomorphs are a perfect evolving entity that can never be defeated. If only one survives an entire planet can be destroyed. This is all achieved without the use of any technology. In essence ALIENS is a spacey Vietnam. Low-tech versus High-tech. I'm relieved the new ALIEN movie called "Prometheus" will be it's own movie instead of a prequel or sequel. FOX was pressuring Scott to make changes to the script and destroy the Alien Legacy. Scott responded by stepping back and saying "Fine, I'm not doing it then". Long time fans can respect the fact he wants to regain creative control of his masterpiece. Maybe there is hope in Hollywood after all?
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Enjay » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:12 pm

Tragos wrote:The mistake your making Enjay is including all the awful ideas surrounding AVP. Giger's art is truly dark and fantastic, the Egyptian styled imagery that would later be woven into the fabric of the universe is a clever idea. However without that much of the story falls apart completely...

No no, not at all. I wasn't drawing on anything to do with AVP. I was quoting (or rather paraphrasing from memory) a book that I used to have. I last read it about 15, maybe 20 years ago and the book was published before even Aliens was made, waaaay before AvP.

Unfortunately, I lost the book in a house move but I remember parts of it very clearly. It was a very large, comprehensive (and expensive) "making of" book for the first film only. It had interviews with many of the key players (including snippets fro Giger), photographs of early prototypes of models, concept art, the lot. It even had little interesting facts - like one of the reasons that aliens drip so much goo (which I think was a KY jelly-like material) was not only to make them scary but help hide some of the mechanics of how the bits and pieces work. It did also mention plenty about not wanting a "man in a suit" appearance and the discovery of Giger's work. As well as some of Giger's comments about his earlier idea for the chest burster. Indeed, rather ironically, much of the stuff that you mentioned in your reply to me - good stuff though it was, and now utterly accepted as part of the alien franchise - was added "after the fact" to help flesh out and explain the universe.

All that stuff that I mentioned about the temple, reproductive imagery and so on (even the giant space lobster crewed by dwarfs) was in the early drafts but dropped early on, as I said primarily because of pace and cost.

I'm not sure how much, if any, of it was filmed. Very little I suspect. It is debatable whether the movie would have been better or worse with it in but it does demonstrate that the original idea behind the aliens was of a much more organised and sentient society than ever made it to the screen and that, at least at the time of the original drafting of the script, a queen and a hive mentality was not particularly part of the concept.

Of course, the queen and the hive like nature of the aliens works and makes a lot of sense in terms of the bigger picture. I'm not complaining about that (in fact, I'm not complaining about anything) but I know that this original idea that I mentioned is not particularly well known by people.



As something quite different, the change of difficulty of combating an alien changed between movies 1 and 2. Now, yes, I know that in movie 1 it was a team of non-military types armed with very little other than a few improvised bits and pieces and in movie 2 the protagonists were a bunch of marines armed to the teeth and with "bug hunting" experience. And I know that movie 1 had a strong accent on terror and suspense where movie 2 (whilst still having those elements) leaned more towards action. However, mainly due to the sheer number of aliens that were supposed to be infesting the base, it always seemed to me that the seemingly invincible, almost supernatural nature of the single alien was lessened in movie 2. It's hard to explain what I mean but I guess the thought of being trapped in a dark space ship hold with that single seemingly intelligent alien in it always felt more dangerous, scary and like you would have no chance than being in the base surrounded by hundreds of them (even if survival in the second situation is logically far less likely - though neither situation is good). Perhaps it's that the first alien took a full movie to destroy yet the second movie popped off aliens left right and centre. I even remember commenting as I left the cinema after seeing it for the first time that it wasn't what I expected (versus the first one) and that it felt more like Rambo in space than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I don't like Aliens (I do - very much, and owned the special edition when most people hadn't even heard of it - gotta love those sentry guns). I'm just pointing out how the two movies sit quite differently with me.

And, while I'm ranting, it pissed me off that the victory from Aliens was snatched away from the viewer (almost immediately) by Alien³ - Hicks dead, Newt dead and (eventually we get confirmed) Ripley infected. Weren't we supposed to care about those characters? It's one thing to have them killed off in the line of duty, on screen, as part of the plot, but to simply be dead at the start of the next one for the sake of convenience? Nah, I didn't like that. It was a cheap start to the movie IMO.
Last edited by Enjay on Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Tragos » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Alien 3 was a travesty!

Apparently, in 1996 Dark Horse re-released and re-mastered the original three stories from 1989. In the Aliens Omnibus, Vol. 1 changing the names of certain characters, re-writing dialog and completely redrawing and re-inking many panels. The story, while relatively similar, has also been re-worked to incorporate these changes. To differentiate Newt from "Billie", Newt was redrawn with slightly more gaunt features and brunette hair. Wilks looks pretty much the same as Hicks, except for the name change. These changes precipitate quite a few inconsistencies in the rest of the stories contained in the Omnibus.

Much of what I wrote above was pulled from an Amazon review. However, I made the same discovery after getting the Omnibus myself a long time ago. The original script for Alien 3 was fantastic. It featured both HICKS and NEWT very much alive and in an active role. However, it was not meant to be, because of either cost or decisions by the very idiotic suits at FOX. They chose instead to focus the story on Ripley. Michael Biehn was reportedly paid 3 times more for the likeness of his character used in ALIEN 3 than he received for his role in ALIENS. Alien 3 could have been better than the first two, but instead we end up with a C+ movie that only provides us with more questions than answers. This problem has continued to this day with these C+ efforts for each Alien movie, and dare I also say Predators as well? I really WANTED to like Alien 3 and everything after it. But I simply cannot support all the plot holes, cheesy effects, poor acting and terrible writing that has infected my favorite franchise. But they still managed to take away my money, on the hope a new movie will live up to my expectations. Shame on you FOX! I actually threw out my copy of AVP-R, I was worried the diarrhea might make me and all my other movies permanently sick.
Last edited by Tragos on Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Enjay » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:35 pm

Tragos wrote:The original script for Aliens 3 was fantastic. It featured both HICKS and NEWT very much alive and in an active role in Aliens 3.

Making even sadder that whatever forces conspired against it prevented it happening. :(

Tragos wrote:They chose instead to focus the story on Ripley.

I have always wondered what the Alien franchise would have been like if either Ripley had not survived the first movie or (more likely) they simply didn't bring Sigourney Weaver back for the second movie. IMO, that has always been a... dubious decision that seemed to tie the fate of the aliens and the stories inexorably to that of Ripley. The moves ceased to centre on the Aliens and humanity's interaction with them and became Ripley's story. Now, Weaver is a fine actress and the character is strong but, ultimately, I don't really care that much about Ripley. She served her purpose in movie 1 and it was a bit false to bring her back in movie 2. The movies didn't need to revolve around her and I wonder if things may have worked out better if they hadn't. I guess we'll never know.

Tragos wrote:Aliens 3 could have been better than the first two, but instead we end up with a C+ movie with provides more questions than answers.

True, true. :(
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Tragos » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:40 pm

I believe GIGER was the person who pushed for more depth into his creation. He wanted the Alien to represent something greater, some of those idea's would make their way into Species. I actually really enjoyed each of those movies for their time. Giger's work always amazes me even when Directors make poor use of it.
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Big C » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:47 pm

That's why I just accept the Dark Horse comics as being the only acceptable canon post-Aliens. :mrgreen:
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Tragos » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:58 pm

All of the rest should be burned in true Nazi-esque fashion. Let's start gathering up everything for the inferno!
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Cyanosis » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:21 pm

I personally love Alien 3. I actually have grown to appreciate it more over the years. Stick with the Assembly Cut. The fact that Ripley lost everything that meant anything to her and it was all about a 1-on-1 situation again, in the ass end of space on a remote planet with some of the worst scum alive who managed to find god just made it that much more bleak and depressing. It's more or less the Day of the Dead of the original Aliens movies, from the original horror, to the action packed sequel, and finally where it all comes to a dark end. I personally think it should of stayed that way and would of made a tight trilogy of films. Resurrection was just trash and a cop out to the franchise. And I've disliked any Alien film since.
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Virtue » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:46 am

update: some shots of the Predator class, its not totally done yet and i'll need help with the status bar cos i want the predator writing instead of the normal status bar

Image
Predator Vision, only works with GZdoom

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More Pred vision, complete with shoulder cannon (that zooms in and out)

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Wristblades to the face xeno scum!

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The SmartDisc, and yes, it does bounce and home and rip and you only have one and have to find it and pick it up again

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Predator Combi Stick, sloooowww but powerful

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Invisibility, there is penalties for using it such as it slows you down and some weapons dont work with it and disable it when fired.
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Naitguolf » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:54 am

ok, i guess... no much love for predator... maybe if the enemies are change into humans.... but then, i will love to be the alien instead...
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Big C » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:33 pm

Okay, now that's just badass.

I always loved the Pred-o-vision. And IIRC the palette you chose for it is accurate to how the Alien scanning mode in the AVP2 game looked.
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Virtue » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:55 pm

he is badass, I cant wait to finish him :P

He's an add-on player class to the mod so no changes to the enemies i'm afraid. There already is an alien playerclass mod out there so I wont be doing one.
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby DrDoctor » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:21 pm

I don't know if you've fixed this already, but I fell like I should point this out.
Spoiler:

Actually the fact that the ceiling alien can instantly traverse any ceiling regardless of height should be fixed . A maximum height difference of 128 units should work well. Also, I'm not sure about this, but I think he can still claw the player even when on a very high ceiling (It seems to happen in the egg chamber on map e3m1.)
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Re: Aliens Doom TC: Special Edition

Postby Xim » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:28 pm

That looks fuckin' sick! I'd love to play as a Predator. This seems like a pretty awesome add-on. ;)
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