Scavver's Paradise V2.1.1 - A Survival Horror Mod

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WEIGHT SYSTEM: What are your thoughts?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:44 am

1) Two separate systems tracking Weapon weight and Item bulk, limiting you to a maximum carry capacity of 60 weight and 100 bulk (Current System)
3
19%
2) Combine Weight and Bulk into one simple weight system. Unlimited carrying capacity, but the higher your weight is the slower you move, with the player being immobilized after a certain threshold (Simplified system, more dynamic)
8
50%
3) Have all items and weapons have both weight AND bulk. Weight limits movement speed the more you carry, bulk is a hard limit on how much equipment you carry. Uncap weight, higher cap on bulk (Like Hideous Destructor)
5
31%
 
Total votes: 16

CaptainNurbles
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

Doomguy914 wrote:I'm definitely liking the ideas you have going forward. While it would be awesome to have animation for specific inventory acts, I'm sure you could make do with text and sound to get the point across.
I'll give it a try, since I've got a bigass reference sprite sheet with tons of arms and hand sprites that I've been using for various animations on weapons. The big contenders are A) If I can find good looking sprites for needles, bandages, blood packs, etc., and B) If I have the friggen patience to do all that work xD
Doomguy914 wrote:I also like the idea of an unarmed version of sprint.
Something I had in mind was either having it be a scripting thing, where if you're moving forwards and holding shift you'll lower your weapon and start sprinting quickly, or to have it be a sorta function in the Unarmed weapon, where if you hold right click or reload, you can sprint faster as long as the button is held. That last point is a maybe since at some point I would like to expand on fisticuffs some, throw in a sorta half-baked combo system to make the fists that much more useful.



So something I'd just noticed a moment ago, several weapons have poorly coded firing sequences in regards to recoil. For many of the weapons, the recoil will kick in the same frame that the gun fires, meaning you're guaranteed to miss your mark. For some it isn't a big deal since they're close quarters weapons, but expect that to be fixed in the next patch. I also just noticed that when you're reloading the 20g pump shotgun on empty during the sequence where you load a shell then pump it into the receiver, it doesn't actually take any ammo from your inventory. Loading 7 shells into the shotgun from empty only uses 6 shells. Won't surprise me if that applies to the 12 gauge pump. fuuuuuk I'm bad at this lol

Also having a go at adding alternative ammo types for shotguns. Since I was able to apply that to rocket launchers, grenade launchers, and the 20mm cannon, I know how to go about doing it in a functional manner. The biggest hurdle is just doing it, since I'd have to apply that to nine friggen guns. I'll probably scrap the concept once my patience wears out, but what I had in mind were slugs for 20 gauge shotguns (About the same damage as standard 20g shells, but only one pellet, with greater accuracy and would deal Small Caliber damage for additional penetration of armor) and a sort of Pulse Slug for 12 gauge shotguns (Increased accuracy, slightly reduced damage, dealing Small Caliber damage on impact for added penetration with a special puff to apply plenty of plasma damage to the target and stun them briefly. Would be good for cybernetic targets.)

(JUST AN EDIT to prevent spamming the forums: I have gone and done this after promising it for what feels like nine years. All nine shell-based weapons (including the underbarrel shotguns in the 4.6mm PDW and the 5.45mm Assault Rifle) can take alternative shotgun shells. Standard full lead slugs for the weaker shotguns, and a plasma-charged pulse slug for the heavier shotguns. Still working out how to best balance how frequently they spawn and how much damage the pulse slugs do.)

I will not be doing this for any magazine-fed weapon, nor will I apply this to the revolver or lever action rifle. The revolver's code is already a massive complicated mess, adding the ability to load an alternative ammo type by hand or by speedloader would be a damn nightmare.

Also also may end up renaming the shells from 20 Gauge and 12 Gauge to 12 Gauge and 10 Gauge, respectively. Would only really be a cosmetic difference! I just kinda figured "okay yeah why would the police use 20 gauge shells for their shotguns? Why wouldn't armed forces 200 years in the future use bigger, stronger shells than 12 gauge with the advances in armor in their time?" I've been thinking on this for months now, main reason why I haven't done it yet is cause it would throw long time fans off kilter since they'd have been used to yellow shells for weaker shots and red for stronger.
CaptainNurbles
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

Work on the mod has been very slow, since honestly with the major 2.0 release out of the way much of my momentum and energy for continuing this thing is pretty much gone, in all honesty. Mostly some minor bug fixes and small improvements here and there (plus the nightmare of making the shotguns be able to take slug shells). I may even call this next update the last content patch altogether.

THAT SAID, I have been having thoughts on simplifying the damage system a little bit, largely in regards to armors. It'd still be complex, trying to emulate how armors resist damage IRL, but would be a fair bit easier on the player. Big things running in my mind are to simplify how armors resist damage to a degree to make it much easier on the player to remember how effective certain armors are. I'll give an example below using ballistic protection.

As it currently goes with the mod, the way the three Ballistic damage types are resisted by body armor is consistently inconsistent and a bit more complicated than it should be. Three damage types, and how each suit of body armor resists those damages varies with each individual suit. The ballistic weave jacket resists 20% of small caliber damage, 30% of pellet damage, and 5% of large caliber damage. Police vest, though, 40% small caliber, 50% pellet, and 15% large caliber. Simple, but it's a lot of numbers to remember among over a dozen types of armor.

What I have in mind, instead, is to have armors resist bullets based off of the NIJ armor ratings. You would only have to memorize four Categories of ballistic protection, Classes I through IV. The armors log would be updated with a definition of those Categories. The police vest would be rated Class II, which would resist 12 gauge shotgun shells and .22 WMR shots effectively, with some efficacy against sub-caliber weapons using 9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP, and 10 gauge cartridges, and little to no effectiveness against large caliber and armor piercing attacks. The armored fire suit would also be rated Class II, with the exact same ballistic resistances as the police vest. The Combat Armor, however, would be rated Class III, with great resistances against sub-caliber weapons, adequate resistance against common rifle cartridges, with poor (but not nonexistent) protection against armor piercing rifles. Keep it consistent and simple that way it's easier to remember how effective a suit of armor is without having to read super deep into how well it resists multiple different damage types.

This would also work with enemies and their damage resistances, standardizing how much ballistic protection cybernetic demons receive (with partially cybernetic demons having resistances comparable to Class I armor, higher tier cybernetic demons having Class II resistances, and fully robotic enemies having a Class III equivalent resistance against bullets.)

I'll spend a good deal of time on this, see if it'd be worth the effort since I'd basically have to redo the damage resistances of most, if not every monster in the mod, as well as redo each and every suit of armor.
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-Ghost-
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by -Ghost- »

I'm honestly fine with how the armors are; they're not really *that* common that you're really picking and choosing from a variety anyway. Adds a little bit of fun flavor to using an armor instead of just basic resistances like vanilla Doom.
CaptainNurbles
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

-Ghost- wrote:I'm honestly fine with how the armors are; they're not really *that* common that you're really picking and choosing from a variety anyway. Adds a little bit of fun flavor to using an armor instead of just basic resistances like vanilla Doom.
Don't worry, the variety of damage types will still be plentiful enough that there'd be reasons to choose one armor over another depending on the situations you face. I just figured that, rather than having to remember and constantly reference how well each armor does against something like 13 different damage types with numbered resistances, I'd simplify it down a little bit. Also gonna look into combining some damage types together like Plasma, Laser, and BFG since functionally there really isn't too much reason to have them be three different damage types, is there?

An example, take the security vest! Not the best out there for ballistic protection, but it'll certainly keep you safe from the hordes of weaker hitscanners! Rather than having to remember "65% defense against pellet attacks, 50% against small caliber weapons, and 30% against large caliber," with the WIP system it'd simply be labeled "Class IIIA", which keeps you well safe against subcaliber bullets, but anything high velocity will still punch through. Functionally under the hood it wouldn't be too different, but it's a way of simplifying things to make it easier for players to understand.

Is this making any sense? I hope it is lol
mrspeaker
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by mrspeaker »

Any reason why damage is reduced when you zoom in with certain weapons?
Ex. 7.62 DMR:
normal damage: 5*random(20,24), while zoomed in: 4*random(20,24)

And with the 7.62 sniper:
normal damage: 8*random(15,18), zoomed in:8*random(9,12), full zoom:8*random(7,10)
CaptainNurbles
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

mrspeaker wrote:Any reason why damage is reduced when you zoom in with certain weapons?
Ex. 7.62 DMR:
normal damage: 5*random(20,24), while zoomed in: 4*random(20,24)

And with the 7.62 sniper:
normal damage: 8*random(15,18), zoomed in:8*random(9,12), full zoom:8*random(7,10)
I am a lazy bastard and apparently didn't think to adjust the scoped damages while hastily modifying their damage buffs. Glad you caught that!
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Doomguy914
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by Doomguy914 »

CaptainNurbles wrote:
fuuuuuk I'm bad at this lol
I wouldn't say that. People make a lot of mistakes doing anything. I'd say what you've managed to accomplish so far has proven you're good at this. :D

The different shotgun shell variants sound really promising. I still remember the first introduction I ever had to alternate ammo types for weapons being on an old version of Brutal Doom. Dragon's Breath, how I miss you. :P

Also I wasn't even aware that the recoil was bugged on a lot of weapons. I thought they were intentional misses to simulate aim stagger.

As for the armor pickups, I mostly just look for what tier it is and what the title implies. Gotta prioritize damage types depending on what I know lies in wait for me ahead. A lot hit scanners or a lot of imps? If there are a lot of imps coming up, and it mentions fire protection, it's safe to say I'll scrap bullet protection armors in favor of the fire. Unless of course I have a very high tier already equipped.

An idea I just had would be hiding the armor variants in a case that the player has to actively reach and press use on before it reveals which armor is available. Reason being, it would add a significant amount of risk, reward, and suspense factors to a map. :twisted:

EX: Do I traverse the narrow path and fight my way to a new armor chance, or... Wait nvm, it's only Imp Leather. I can completely skip that harrowing section of the room and continue on my merry way... But if I couldn't see the armor from a distance, I wouldn't know my currently worn armor is the best option for me. :lol:

It'd probably be a pain to code, but it sounds like it would help immerse the player and emphasize just how stuck in the shit they truly are. Just me spouting off cool ideas I know nothing about the code that goes into it. Feel free to ignore my little inputs. :?
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

Doomguy914 wrote:The different shotgun shell variants sound really promising. I still remember the first introduction I ever had to alternate ammo types for weapons being on an old version of Brutal Doom. Dragon's Breath, how I miss you. :P
In my experience they're an interesting addition! I'm just trying to get a gooood balance with how frequently they spawn. I want the standard slugs to be somewhat common (less so than buckshot), but frequent enough that one would definitely get regular use of them for more accurate shots that have a better chance punching through armor.

Pulse slugs though, they're definitely intended to be rare since a couple of them can nuke larger demons and especially cybernetic demons something fierce. Don't do much against Cyberdemons or Spidermasterminds though since they rely on blast damage.
Doomguy914 wrote:Also I wasn't even aware that the recoil was bugged on a lot of weapons. I thought they were intentional misses to simulate aim stagger.
The main issue is that several weapons will kick the recoil in the same exact frame that the hitscan attack is made. For many weapons this isn't a humongous issue, but if you're trying to make longer range shots or attack enemies in cover, it can be an issue.
Doomguy914 wrote:An idea I just had would be hiding the armor variants in a case that the player has to actively reach and press use on before it reveals which armor is available. Reason being, it would add a significant amount of risk, reward, and suspense factors to a map. :twisted:

EX: Do I traverse the narrow path and fight my way to a new armor chance, or... Wait nvm, it's only Imp Leather. I can completely skip that harrowing section of the room and continue on my merry way... But if I couldn't see the armor from a distance, I wouldn't know my currently worn armor is the best option for me. :lol:

It'd probably be a pain to code, but it sounds like it would help immerse the player and emphasize just how stuck in the shit they truly are. Just me spouting off cool ideas I know nothing about the code that goes into it. Feel free to ignore my little inputs. :?
Honestly this is giving me ideas for lil' loot crates that can be found and broken open. Ideally it would be pretty interesting for them to have some inherent risk/reward to them, like "If I try to get this open it'll alert a bunch of demons to my position, but I get a kickass reward for it" or something. I can't say I know how I could implement that sort of risk system, but if nothing else having unmarked boxes which can be kicked open for a random assortment of loot would certainly be interesting!
mrspeaker
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by mrspeaker »

CaptainNurbles wrote:Honestly this is giving me ideas for lil' loot crates that can be found and broken open. Ideally it would be pretty interesting for them to have some inherent risk/reward to them, like "If I try to get this open it'll alert a bunch of demons to my position, but I get a kickass reward for it" or something. I can't say I know how I could implement that sort of risk system, but if nothing else having unmarked boxes which can be kicked open for a random assortment of loot would certainly be interesting!
Would make sense for ammo! Ammo crates with either a bit of several types or a lot of one type of ammo.
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-Ghost-
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by -Ghost- »

Yeah, you could have already broken open ones and such to help add some extra detail to maps as well.
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

What's developed so far in regards to the crates)

Two tiers of ammo crates!
* Civilian grade, which spews out an amount of one of the following: .22 WMR mags, 9mm pistol mags, .45 ACP mags, 9mm SMG mags, 5.56mm rifle mags, 12 gauge shells, 12 gauge slugs.
* Military Grade, which spews out an amount of one of the following: 10mm pistol mags, 4.6mm PDW mags, 10mm SMG mags, 10 gauge shells, 10 gauge pulse slugs, 5.45mm assault rifle mags, 6.2mm assault rifle mags, 7.62mm rifle mags, 5.7mm chaingun mags, 5.56mm SAW drum mags.

See a crate, give it a kick, out spews one or more magazines, or a bundle of loose shotgun shells to be collected. These have a low chance to spawn in place of Clips and ClipBoxes. I'll be toying around with these to see how I like this tiering out of the ammunition, how much is given to the player, and how common they are.

What I have planned)

Gear Crates: Unsure where I'd want these spawning, but given that it can give a bit of everything, I may have it spawn in place of armors and backpacks. Like ammo boxes, kick to open and receive gear. I'm still trying to think of how I'd want it to give gear, but I'll probably go with something like "Three State checks, each occurring one after the other. First one kicks out a random gun and some ammo to go with it, move to second state which spits out either some armor or a random bit of equipment, then a low chance to move to a third state which can give real rare weapons, armor, and permanent upgrades."

Ideally I would want to add that risk/reward to these crates! Make it a sorta "if I chance death or wasting my supplies I can get something quite good from it" kinda deal. I don't know how I would go about implementing it, but I do want there to be an inherent risk to these crates.


With all the above in mind, throwing in these random spawn crates reminds me of how I used to religiously play Doom RL: Arsenal, and the comparison is making me contemplate adding in more consumable items, more permanent upgrades, and more weaponry (I'd mostly want to add in energy weapons, maybe some new explosives, and types of ballistic weapons that are more than just "slow, powerful long range rifle" and "rapid fast dakkadakka gun". Adding new ammunition types is something I would want to avoid, since it's already a nightmare balancing what's already there, but if I can get ahold of enough variety in energy weapon sprites, I may add a second type of smaller energy cell for more compact weapons. Lots to think about!)


I can't say I know when I'll be pushing this next update, since I have a lot of ideas swimming through my head and limited energy for modding, so in the meantime I would love more feedback! Anything from mechanic suggestions (these are limited by my skillset and patience), balance ideas, quality of life improvements, and general improvements to things.
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Doomguy914
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by Doomguy914 »

I'm always playing RLA. It's practically the definitive way I play Doom now. :lol:

So I tried playing this with DarkDoom and enhanced AI recently. Seems to work really well together. Starting on a difficulty like Dead Man Walking, the light level stealth mechanics are a must. Of course, that just meant me punching a soldier to death while crouching in the beginning area of E1 M1. It took about 3 restarts before I successfully got a weapon and a healing item to spawn. I'm going to include universal crits and backstabs to my loadout to see if they all play nicely together.

I'd have to go through another complete run of Scavver's to think about what kind of permanent upgrades would be good to add. Perhaps I'll try tackling Memnto Mori again and see what I can determine from the difficulty of that wad. :shock: (I am so fucked lol. That beginning is almost impossible without starting with grenades.)
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-Ghost-
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by -Ghost- »

I think more consumables and upgrades are a great idea. It helps make it really satisfying to find a well hidden secret when you get a permanent boost to HP or something, especially on those longer WADs. Maybe even permanent stat/resistance buffs, like higher bleed resist, etc.? Could tie them into cybernetic or medical syringe upgrades or something for rare, experimental stuff.
CaptainNurbles
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

Doomguy914 wrote:I'd have to go through another complete run of Scavver's to think about what kind of permanent upgrades would be good to add.
There was a system I had thought up some time ago, but never implemented, of temporary buffs gained through hellish artifacts. Things that would boost resistances and damages and such, but often at some sort of cost (like wear this amulet for additional protection against flames! But the downside is that you take more bullet damage, or wear a ring which boosts how much healing you get through magical means, but manmade healing is gimped.) You'd get to wear one at a time and would be able to remove them via hotkey. Perhaps now would be a good time to throw that in!
-Ghost- wrote:I think more consumables and upgrades are a great idea. It helps make it really satisfying to find a well hidden secret when you get a permanent boost to HP or something, especially on those longer WADs. Maybe even permanent stat/resistance buffs, like higher bleed resist, etc.? Could tie them into cybernetic or medical syringe upgrades or something for rare, experimental stuff.
Interesting stuff, yeh. I'll poke around different games and mods to see if I can get any inspiration!



I will, though, worry about the upgrades and such for a future update. This next one I wanna get out kinda soon, let y'all play with the new shotgun ammos, and get some feedback on it. Update after that I'll be focusing on adding more stuff to enhance the late game and increasing replay value (I dunno about you lot, but I've gotten into a routine of seeking out a certain handful of weapons to use since they maximize what ammos you're able to use and fill various niches and use cases.)
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Re: Scavver's Paradise V2.0 - A Survival Horror Mod

Post by CaptainNurbles »

Don't need to be cluttering the forum up, but a new poll is up! I'm contemplating redoing the weight system to make things less jank and less limiting and to make things a bit more dynamic and fun for the player. Part of me says keep it as it is since it's technically functional and I'm a lazy sumbitch, but also having weight be more than just a binary "you can carry it or you can't and need to drop stuff" would likely make the mod more fun.

Please cast a vote if you can! The more input I get the better.

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