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Mellow Heretic - [monster package]... and Amber Wayfarer

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:43 am
by Lagi
Mellow Heretic

idea of this mod is to create monsters package, that can be used in other mods (after HP adjustments to weapon mod).
you can still perfectly used it in vanilla heretic.

This is rip off of (almost no wendigo f.ex) all monster sprites from BitterHeretic. this would be heretic equivalent of smooth doom.

Spoiler: AmberWayfarer & other mod/map recommendation

I command You to use this package in your mod! And to distribute/upload it everywhere.
If you disobey you will be curse ethereally by JuJu from the mountain.

  • alternative deaths, Xdeaths
  • melee attacks
  • smooth walking
  • wound states
  • fire, ice deaths
  • independent package (dont need Heretic.wad)
  • I would aim with the monster stats to the conclusions I come here. So f.ex. lower monster health (anyone can change them anyway).

golem 60 HP- . Sprites ID names: GOLM, GOLN, GOLO, GOLA, GOLB, GOLC
gargoyle 30- GARG,GARH,GARI
undead warrior 150- KNGT, KNGU, KNGV, KNGW, KNGX, KNGY
disciple 80- WIZR WIZS
sabreclaw 75- SACL SACM SACN SACO
weredragon 220- WERE WERF WERG
ophidian 170- SNKE SNKF
ironlich 850- LICH LICW
maulotaur 2500- MINT MINW
myth warrior WARR WARS
possessed zmb1 zmb2 zmb3
check BitterHeretic
NotJabba - wayfarer weaponmod
Tyr - warrior recolor, trident, ice death
osjclatchford - golem xdeath, possessed monster
JP LeBreton - always pistol start option included
Neoworm - most new graphics, too many to list.
player107 - hexen melee hit behavior code
Jarewill.. and many others who solve my coding problems

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:24 am
by Gen5lock131
Interesting. Would this include as well smooth weapon animations?

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:54 pm
by Lagi
Let's first do the monsters.

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:48 pm
by Tyr
I this mod comes from you personally - It's always a good idea! :D

You blasted my mind with Bitter Heretic!
As an old Arcade Brawler/Fighter Player your mod was a GODSEND!
(Golden Axe (Arcade/Megadrive), Rastan (Arcade/Megadrive), Barbarian: The Ultimate Warrior/Dungeon of Drax (C64/Amiga) and many many other Arcade Games... I also posess the Original Boxed Version of Wichaven 2)

Every hope and wish for a better Heretic Gameplay ....Bitter Heretic fullfilled! ->Double Axes!!!!!

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:30 am
by Lagi
You have no idea, how glad I'm reading your post.

Mellow heretic idea is to create a graphic monster source, so other may used it. It take some effort to extract the sprites.
And the old school gameplay, is something for what everyone are on this forum.


things i plan to change in bitter:
- reduce projectile deflection for Lich and Deathknight. If you play any custom maps, they not using Lich as a boss, at all. And ghost knight is placed as often on maps as normal knights
- change the sword swing behavior, to kill everything (not tough enough) in front arch
- increase time for wendigo to punch, maybe add: if you crouch you dodge the punch.
- increase sabreclaw move speed
- increase speed of death animation
- add to gargoyle and disciple strafe like in hexen
- i make the transition to run when you press Shift, faster. also the run itself would be faster.
- fix the ice shattering with block bug

- make the block a little faster, add only block for shield on Reload. If you play some slaughterfest map, then you need to utilize block, to stun the monsters, and it take a little too much time. Plus in panic its very hard to timely block with shield.

-and you know... add some monster maybe?

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:16 am
by Tyr
The Shield-Stun mechanic is one of my favourite features. I also like to pickup torches and burn enemies (random black gargoyle is genial).

Faster Sabreclaws could be really dangerous. Should be carefully implemented.
If you play an adventure map with an intruiging level design they come in the dark after you where you mostly stuck in kind of a labyrinth.

Why increasing speed of the death animation? That one i don't understand.

Don't get me wrong i like the slow/atmospheric gameplay Bitter Heretic has to offer!

My Opinion on the "Blue" Knight :D :
For Gods sake: change the palette. Rusty/metal colors or a viking makeover. (Like Hexen, Heretic is Dark Fantasy despite Hexen is much darker)

I am !Hyped! for all other planed features in Bitter Heretic. :geek:
The only thing i personally would change is the implemented Highres Neural Texture Pack (NTP) = optional.

I am also Hyped for Mellow Heretic's Monsters....because i KNOW how good your additional Sprite Animations for Bitter Heretic Monsters are - They are perfect.

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:59 am
by Lagi
Few very good points, thanks.

Monster agony taking time confusing player, whether he should still shoot to it or not? f.ex. ophidian is dying very long, when he lost his head. Ok, maybe i wrong here.

I love the "slow" (its not slow, just compare to default run speed it is) pace too. F.ex. im playing Winter Fury without running, and its perfect (except the bossess fight maybe, because you cannot outrun the projectiles). If you turn on the capslock, you changing the vibe of the game.

"Knight" is rip off from Myth The Fallen Lords. I would tone down the colors, like so:
unfortunately its not perfect (or my color skills are poor), but would be less bright than original for sure.
Well perfectly would be if I go full autism mode and manually add SerpentRiders trident on each shield (its 100+sprites).

optional textures - I would look into it, hope its easy cvar switch. I personally get a headache if i play pixalated map for too long.

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:02 am
by Tyr
The Knight looks better know! I think we must see this sprite ingame with the environment lighting to really see if the colors are too bright. The Trident is awesome!

My personally taste (if i think of bitter heretic's gameplay) would be eather a muscular barbarian or a tough viking for a player character like in the good old days (much better "Balls of Steel" days). Not a tiny small English "King Arthur" Knight wannabe. :)
Little Reminders:

Winter's Fury is very hard till the point were it's not funny anymore. But it should be played slow because you can experience the fantastic graphical environment better than running and shooting like an id*ot and seeing nothing of the fantastic mapwork.

You did a great job with the gameplay modification of Not Jabbas Wayfarer. It's playable now. 1000 bulletshots at a "normal" weak monster is also not SANE. That's my personal opinion. I prefer to play your version instead.

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:36 am
by Tyr
From what i got headache from are blured images/sprites!
Pixel Art should always be shown big to see if it's pixelperfect.
Example: Wichaven 1 not even the best texture pack can save this game from looking cheap.

The Times of Doomsday Engine's 3D texture Project are long gone.... first WOW and later....i want my pixels back (That's how i felt).
Now Effects like bloom and shadows/lighting which are offered in GZDoom are all i need for graphic (not even a linear filtering).

When i play bitter heretic with wizardworks: dwarfen mines ("you know the thing" :lol: ) i still have custom textures in the old resolution like in this case: the Snow textures which are still not in upscaled in the NTP! Than better without NTP or NTP with many various custom textures - 2 posibilities). That's why i asked to have an option to remove the NTP.

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:49 am
by Lagi
the trident is awesome but pasting it on every sprite would not be

Heretic lore speak about legions that submit to the Serpent Riders as they god. This man-at-arms suppose to be the soldiers that oath for their new masters. I purposely aim for this normal, weak human posture. So they are in contrast to more powerful monster.

not sure if its worth to create player actor. You never see him player avatar, unless its some Co-op with bots (Gzdoom with zscripts and acs, dont have multi). You remind me the fortune i spend on Dungeon&dragons arcade machine :). This game was not fair! It was impossible to survive the boss battles without continues.

Winterfury: exactly! This arctic ambient of this map is something extraordinary, I even feel the cold myself (or maybe i forgot to turn on the heating in my apartment :D ). After the first double boss battle, the game is becoming a classic "challenging".

For Wayfarer: with weaker monster, some weapon need tone down. F.ex. crossbow dont need anymore 4x sidebolts.
I mostly like to add melee attack on alt fire. It would be staff hit (wayfarer style) in every case, except gauntlets (punch), xbow, and Firemace (swing).

filtering is rubbish agree. First thing i do is set this to NONE.
how ever the high res texture are not blurred. Its neural rescale. Anyway would try to add option for that.
Spoiler: open it in new tab, cause its blurr from imgur miniature

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:34 am
by Tyr
I have edited my message above! Have you read it, again? You posted too fast :)
In Build Engine Neural Upscale look miles better....
This one looks up-blurred :o)
i know what it is... but if you are missing a custom texture? How does it look?
->->-> Like a Multiresolution Mess!

I go with the Hexen Lore! You are right!

Not that you buy Dungeons and Dragon's on Steam again (a mediocre but licensed port), now that i reminded you. I have it since years on Mame which is a perfect emulation of the real thing. :) Sadly i never had the chance to play the machine in real live...but Golden Axe, Street Fighter 1,Final Fight and Altered Beast.

Your Sprite project is a hassle....but looks promising!

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:51 am
by Tyr
Look! If you send me the right images with the correct Heretic indexed color palette so that i can change them/work in GIMP. I don't know the preferences of GZ and Heretic exactly - you could tell me. Maybe another program to preview the sprite.
The Left Knight with the trident shield looks only strange because of a "trident" perspective correction in the wrong direction.

I could make your trident. At least i could try if you want to.

In the past: I did make a test voxel for Blood/Build GDX. 3 different programs were needed to get the colors right ingame. This was bad.

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:22 am
by Lagi
Your offer has been accepted.
I will make my self tea. And glue together the knight. After that I would send you, or publish here the link.
I will do it today.

The palette doesnt matter, it would be png. Sorry for my ignorance but Gzdoom accept absolutely every color. And back compatibility never bother me TBH.

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:46 am
by Tyr
Please PM it when you are ready! No stress! We have a corona lockdown in my city....everything is slow here :o)

Re: Mellow Heretic

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:23 pm
by Lagi

well :roll: , this color should pass

when you paint I suggest to add extra layer, to work as background. Its easier to catch detail at the contour.

suggest to dl from here ... 2.png/file

when (if) you finish i would cut this big image into smaller frame, and then adjust the positions.

will do a package to test him in game

hmm... yes colors are badly bright, but those are freshly ripped sprites.
He doesnt have too many animation. Hope this would be saved by shield block, pain a little. +2x Death animation will help.

Spoiler: color setting in