[RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby MrRumbleRoses » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:57 pm

kabuto wrote:
MrRumbleRoses wrote:i have that Duke Nukem Zero Hour weapons mod made by MetroidJunkie. chaingun's shooting sound does need a bit of work though

Really ? i didnt know that mod. Can you share ?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/148gVTO ... sp=sharing
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby Curunir » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:54 pm

Late arrival here, saw this mod at random, clicking through reddit posts and it was featured in a "Duke in Doom" mod showcase video.

Absolutely love everything I see in this, especially the heavily customizable everything! Had a lot of fun playing through a number of maps.

The only thing that sticks out and seems to bother me is that the shotgun has no penetration. I understand that Duke's shotgun worked that way but Duke levels never had the sort of monster placement, clustering and sheer numbers that most Doom maps have. In Doom you sort of need that shotgun penetration by design, to be able to survive some encounters on higher difficulties. The much more intense Duke AND souped-up Doom enemies in this mod make things even harder without shotgun penetration.

Ideally, I'd love to see this as a toggle, but I'd also be more than happy if someone could just point me to an editable file in the mod that I can touch up to restore shotgun pellet penetration on my own install, if that's possible.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kipo » Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:34 pm

MrRumbleRoses wrote:
kabuto wrote:
MrRumbleRoses wrote:i have that Duke Nukem Zero Hour weapons mod made by MetroidJunkie. chaingun's shooting sound does need a bit of work though

Really ? i didnt know that mod. Can you share ?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/148gVTO ... sp=sharing


Thanks for sharing. That's interesting.

Curunir wrote:The only thing that sticks out and seems to bother me is that the shotgun has no penetration. I understand that Duke's shotgun worked that way but Duke levels never had the sort of monster placement, clustering and sheer numbers that most Doom maps have. In Doom you sort of need that shotgun penetration by design, to be able to survive some encounters on higher difficulties. The much more intense Duke AND souped-up Doom enemies in this mod make things even harder without shotgun penetration.


I could be wrong in this, but I believe doom's penetration is due to the fact that zombiemen have very low health, so it's not really penetration, but rather the remaining shotgun bullets keep going through the dying corpses and hitting the targets behind. You can see there's not much penetration in imps since their health is higher. The real penetration in gzdoom is through railgun-like bullets, or ripper/ripperlevel stuff but that's another story. In brutal doom, even though the zombies have higher health, you can feel a similar effect because sgt. mark fine-tuned the damagefactors for shotgun/ssg in each monster, replicating the penetration effect (I think).

In my mod, I've tried to balance things out by giving lots of options for "mass control". For example, there's the explosive shells, fire rounds, accurate and useful pistol, plasma cannon's splash damage to nearby enemies and it's alf fire which rips through enemies, explosive weapons in general obliterate the smaller foes, incinerator's regular fire to keep the enemies away, expander's alt fire, freezethrower's alt fire, plus there's easy to use pipebombs and sticky mines. All those options lets you clear the areas with not much trouble. And for bigger foes you can one-hit kill them with the shrinker (except for the really big bosses, but even those can die easily with rockets to the head, plasma cannon's alt fire to the head, or the incinerator which pretty much disables them). Not to mention additional stuff, like headshots, plasma cannon usefulness for metal enemies, you get to heal yourself and accumulate health up to 200 hp, the dukebots, and the ability to have friendly cops (shrinker's alt fire), items hidden in decorations, enemies with friendly fire, higher enemy pain chances, etc.
I don't consider myself a pro or anything like that, but by having all those options my performance is similar than in maps loaded with other enhanced mods like brutal doom.

With all that said, I think you can still get the desired effect by adding damagefactors to smaller foes, like this (although I'd rather recommend to get used to the other options first):
damagefactor "Shotgun", 2.0
damagefactor "SSG", 2.0

If that doesn't work, then there's some more magic to bullet penetration that I'm not aware of.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby Max Dickings » Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:51 pm

MrRumbleRoses wrote:
kabuto wrote:
MrRumbleRoses wrote:i have that Duke Nukem Zero Hour weapons mod made by MetroidJunkie. chaingun's shooting sound does need a bit of work though

Really ? i didnt know that mod. Can you share ?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/148gVTO ... sp=sharing


Wow! Thank you for sharing! This is pretty impressive, and super easy way around the lack of sprites - use the weapon models anyway!
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby Curunir » Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:24 am

Just made a small, narrow test room with 5 zombiemen lined up.

The vanilla game without the mod, you can pierce through all 5 with a close-up SSG shot, 3 with the normal shotgun.

Mod with Doom enemies - you could take down 2 enforcers with the SSG, just one with the shotgun.
Mod with Duke enemies - SSG would often only take down a single enforcer even with regular, two-barrels fire.

I won't pretend I know how exactly the engine handles shotgun pellets and if it has real penetration, but it feels very very different. I am just asking because in a lot of maps you would be using the shotgun an awful lot, due to the abundance of ammo for it from both enemies and pickups, due to how a lot of vanilla levels are designed, and you feel like you're not getting your money's worth out of your gun and ammo, and also can't thin down enemy numbers fast enough this way.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kipo » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:08 am

Thanks for the test. It kinda confirms what I'm saying: In vanilla doom the zombiemen have 20 hp, so if we imagine 3 shotgun pellets are enough to kill one, then the rest will go through to next target.
In my mod the zombiemen have 50 hp (and duke troopers have 60 hp), so you need more pellets to kill one, and less go through to the next target.
Why are my first tier doom enemies stronger? to compensate for the stronger arsenal I'm giving to duke (and also to give them build-like functionality). And I gave duke a stronger arsenal because duke enemies are stronger (and I wanted this mod to be able to be played in existing doom maps without altering duke enemies stats too much).
Have you tried using the alternate fires? Most of the weapons have an alt fire. The shotgun's alt fire is sure to be the right tool for the job in the case you are describing.

If you still feel it's not enough, you can always try the "damagefactor" way I posted before.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby Curunir » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:35 pm

I was assuming the shotgun and chaingun didn't have alt fires. Followed your advice and all my problems went away, game became immensely more enjoyable once I realized the regular shottie and chaingun have alt fire too.

When you get into the swing of things, this feels better than Brutal Doom, I love it so much! Played through 3 of the 4 Deathless D1 episodes with the mod and it was incredible!

Thank you for making this once again! <3
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kabuto » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:39 pm

Max Dickings wrote:! Thank you for sharing! This is pretty impressive, and super easy way around the lack of sprites - use the weapon models anyway!

I prefer the original plan to use the original models to create the sprites. Although that is decided by the creator of the mod.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kipo » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:36 pm

Curunir wrote:I was assuming the shotgun and chaingun didn't have alt fires. Followed your advice and all my problems went away, game became immensely more enjoyable once I realized the regular shottie and chaingun have alt fire too.

When you get into the swing of things, this feels better than Brutal Doom, I love it so much! Played through 3 of the 4 Deathless D1 episodes with the mod and it was incredible!

Thank you for making this once again! <3


That's awesome. Glad it got sorted out.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kalensar » Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:26 am

Hell to the YEAH on this update. It did a lot of things right and I was having a blast testing out the DN3Doom version of Doom monsters. Those were super fun and you put together a lot of good mechanics from other classic-style monster mods to really good effect. Kinda like a mix of both NTMAI and Brutal producing this fun monstrosity of carnage.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kabuto » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:48 am

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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kabuto » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:48 am

kabuto wrote:

A Video from alptraum
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby gman829 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:38 pm

Is there a mod that's only the monsters? I want to use these monsters with different weapons like Final Doomer +.
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Re: [RELEASE] DN3DooM - update v.1.07

Postby kabuto » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:10 am

gman829 wrote:Is there a mod that's only the monsters? I want to use these monsters with different weapons like Final Doomer +.

Nope. Not yet at least.
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