Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Jarewill » Wed May 20, 2020 1:45 am

Well, took me a while, but I finally have beaten D'Sparil with this mod.
I must say, I don't particularly like the Raven games, but your mod actually made me play Heretic and enjoy playing it.

The greatsword is definitely my favorite weapon of the bunch, it feels so powerful and heavy to use. I love it!
However, I would say that the slot position is kinda awkward. Having to reach to 9 to select the sword isn't all that comfortable in my opinion.
Also holding altfire with the greatsword puts the sword down after a while, just to raise it back up again.

One thing I noticed is that I can't reload my wand if I have only 1 crystal left.
I assume it's supposed to be like: "You have 1 crystal remaining, counting the one in the wand itself"
But it did confuse me at first, thinking that I didn't have something important bound to a button.

But this is still really enjoyable!
I still keep coming back to play this every so often, due to just how fun the melee combat feels in this.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Captain J » Wed May 20, 2020 2:18 am

Jarewill wrote:I assume it's supposed to be like: "You have 1 crystal remaining, counting the one in the wand itself"
But it did confuse me at first, thinking that I didn't have something important bound to a button.
Well it's kinda reasonable if you think about it. The crystal on your wand does count as remaining crystal and you can't reload if you only have one.

Also here's the extra suggestion: Tar Bottle's exploding time and the hitscan-esq projectiles are both unpredictable. Since Corvus runs quite slowly, it's dangerous to use and would burn him too. Making projectiles visible or adding another frame before exploding might be at least safe.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Wed May 20, 2020 2:31 am

Captain J wrote:Bloody, Medieval, Gory, and just Gorgeous. You manage to make the Heretic much more challenging and tactical than usual. I love the changes and the gore effect! It's a wonderful feeling when i kill a flock of zombies with a mace.
Spoiler: And here's some feedback of the day
And that's about it. It gets really real!


Thats some excellent feedback, Captain.
The word I stick to is "prosaic". Means that you have this feeling of lose (when ghost take your precious crossbow just like that), items looks mundane/ not attractive , or that there is some "labors" like reloading crystals, or "inconvenience" using torch for light.


Spoiler: answers
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Wed May 20, 2020 3:59 am

Jarewill wrote:Well, took me a while, but I finally have beaten D'Sparil with this mod.
I must say, I don't particularly like the Raven games, but your mod actually made me play Heretic and enjoy playing it.


Thank You for that message. Its brighten my day, and refill my stamina bar :) .

Jarewill wrote:The greatsword is definitely my favorite weapon of the bunch, it feels so powerful and heavy to use. I love it!
However, I would say that the slot position is kinda awkward. Having to reach to 9 to select the sword isn't all that comfortable in my opinion.

I recommend to use weapon wheel (included in pk3, check options), bind it to f.ex. capslock
Spoiler:


Jarewill wrote:Also holding altfire with the greatsword puts the sword down after a while, just to raise it back up again.

Will check and fix it. [ this is fixed ]

Jarewill wrote:One thing I noticed is that I can't reload my wand if I have only 1 crystal left.
I assume it's supposed to be like: "You have 1 crystal remaining, counting the one in the wand itself"
But it did confuse me at first, thinking that I didn't have something important bound to a button.


yes, you are right.

hmm... if you start with 0 crystal and be able to shoot with the one on stick it would feel strange. You would presume you have no ammo.

If I start with trickery to remove ammo, when crystal is depleted (grey), it would be not any less confusing. "ok i have 3 crystal, but the one on wand is grey, so I have total 2 good crystal to use" "my crystal is flickering, do i still have one spare in inventory or does it mean this one is not empty?"

need to think about it.

edit:
Captain J wrote:The crystal on your wand does count as remaining crystal and you can't reload if you only have one.
yes, this is the logic I follow here.

Jarewill wrote:But this is still really enjoyable!
I still keep coming back to play this every so often, due to just how fun the melee combat feels in this.

:oops:
Last edited by Lagi on Wed May 20, 2020 6:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Wed May 20, 2020 4:03 am

Captain J wrote:Also here's the extra suggestion: Tar Bottle's exploding time and the hitscan-esq projectiles are both unpredictable. Since Corvus runs quite slowly, it's dangerous to use and would burn him too. Making projectiles visible or adding another frame before exploding might be at least safe.


check the tar bottle knot. the candle slowly going down (when ignite). I think there is 3 steps. I notice it from distance when it blow (because i have a big screen :mrgreen: ).
You can completely avoid all projectile burns if you jump (the flame will go under).
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Captain J » Wed May 20, 2020 4:34 am

Thanks for the clear and detailed reply. I really had fun playing this mod, really! Glad that Heretic is getting some spotlight.
I will slaughter some imps today to check it.

Here's the screenie, just to be sure.
yes, that's issue coming from code.
Block is sending invisible projectiles that stun monsters if they attack when you block. Not sure if GZdoom foreseen turn off of decals in this case? I can set fixed pitch, but you wont be able to block Gargoyles attack from above then.
similar issue is with ice corpses, you can shatter them with block. If I change block projectiles type into Ice, then you are healing Wendigo when you block :? .Will see what I can do
Maybe this flag: DONTSPLASH might help you to prevent the splashing.
I was thinking that drinking Krater could allow you to do more damage, but you already killing everything with 2x hits.
Krater gives you the power, while the Tomb of power does some ice magic... It's a nicely changing concept, except you probably should rename the Tomb of power into Tomb of Ice. Heh

But i was thinking about Krater increasing your weapon speed, or superior protection. Hence it has the word Power in the name.

Aaaand here's more feedback:
- When i thrust with my Trident, the animation flickers a bit.

- Typing the cheat code will hurt Corvus for some reason. No, i'm not talking about IDDQD. I mean Heretic's own cheat codes.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Wed May 20, 2020 4:54 am

hmm this ribs actually looks good :)
similar issue is with Golem arm, it sometimes stuck on top of some decoration and spin endlessly. If I make it non solid, it would cause more problem that it solve.

thanks for DONTSPLASH - will test it now. [WORK LIKE A CHARM - THANKS]

Tome of Power is item from original heretic, part of its heritage. Its even mention in the lore. There is 7 tome of powers, that are sacred. Heretic lore is nonsense :).
ok, if you find second tome you will be able to shoot lightnings and triple book would serve as balancing force for your uneven table. Whats your ideas Captain?

increasing weapon speed is good idea - would require some effort to alter all animations timing code for melee weapons though.

will check trident thrust [ fix: remove one TNT1 A 1, there is smooth transition from side incline 3rd thrust into the forward thrust , i add 1 frame to return animation from side incline thrust-looks smoother, time is same]

cheat are hardcoded. You receive max gauntlets "heat", that overheat destroy gauntlets and damage you. Same is with sword nicks (you get maximum jagged blade). In case of this two weapons the cheat is not beneficial, because ammo is something you dont want to collect. Try : summon gauntlets
Last edited by Lagi on Wed May 20, 2020 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Captain J » Wed May 20, 2020 5:38 am

No need to put more new things to Tomb of Power unless it's really needed. Just do what you want! I don't mind. Also glad DONTSPLASH flag worked like a charm! It's a very useful flag when it comes to watery terrain.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Wed May 20, 2020 7:35 am

fix [uploaded]:
-cannot reload wand if crystal is shining already
-red gauntlets light dont stay if you overheat gloves, and lose it
-trident thrust not flickering, fix thrust animation (esp. with incline thrust)
-fix sword block
-remove water splash from blocking
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Wed May 20, 2020 8:57 am

Ferretmanjcdenton wrote:I can make a short video on my channel if you like ..

It would interesting to see someone playing bitter heretic.
I would like to watch video from your gameplay.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Ferretmanjcdenton » Wed May 20, 2020 4:44 pm

https://youtu.be/I8ZFBRx48zM

Here ...I have over 250 vids online... maybe you like some other ones also ..
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Captain J » Wed May 20, 2020 9:25 pm


Use Youtube URL like this to display the vid!
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Thu May 21, 2020 5:40 am

you playing on your phone? dont you hate fingering the touch screen.

anyway you make that video quite time ago. Nice you show lots of features in short time. If you make 200 vids, then maybe its worth to add some voice commentary like:
" today i present you crappy heretic mod, where you walk slower ... i know TF he was thinking. But at least you can freeze enemies so its cool. Thanks for watching click subscribe and I recommended RAID mmo because you know why"

=========
uploaded;
- fix map gem UI - thanks 3saster
- fix GoldWand (add particles, add light flare. slower the firerate by 5 (10%), because goldwand feel too much like a gun)
- set GoldWand ammo to 0 - will see if its more or less confusing :D
- gauntlets are cooling down very slowly
- limit grenades to 8x (now you will use them much more)

thoughts:
-despite my efforts gizmos are not mirrored around doors, but i think im the only one who is annoyed by that.

- i set mace as always causing pain weapon. Its much stronger tool then, that is painlock everything all the time.
1. This completely remove validity from blocking.
2. If i balance it by damage reduce or slower swing, its a boring stunlocking gameplay. What player suppose to do? change weapon after each hit?
Mace currently hit 3 targets instead 2 (or 1) like axe, which is also faster.

- i test Wendigo and DeathKnight, and must say that as tier 2.5 monsters they work very well. They HP bloated, and you need to be clever to defeat them, instead going for punches exchange. I play the Crypt level twice today, and its possible to fight even with multiple of those gentlemen's. DeathKnight flame damage seems too big, but its hard to judge. Otherwise there is not really a tougher opponent in game.

- i want to make blocking - semi automatic. You have to click each time to block, you cannot just hold altfire. But after playing with monster multiplier, i find it annoying. I was panic clicking. And it discourage me from blocking. So maybe the raise and lowering weapon for block looks odd, but in heat of battle it start to make sens.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Captain J » Thu May 21, 2020 9:50 pm

Played Heretic with this mod again and i just found out:

- Since Corvus' speed is realistically slow, it's quite hard to dodge Maulotaur's dashing attack. It feels like the game force me to use the Krater, which is limited or doesn't exist in certain maps. But i have plenty of ammo, so can we expect it to stun and stop dashing when it goes to pain state?

- Maulotaurs can damage themselves with their fire magic.

- You can see how much damage you gave to It and Iron Lich by looking at their sprite. But not D'Sparil and his Serpent, though.

- I still can use Tomb of Power although all the pages are gone. Intentional?
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Postby Lagi » Fri May 22, 2020 1:15 am

Captain J wrote:Played Heretic with this mod again and i just found out:

- Since Corvus' speed is realistically slow, it's quite hard to dodge Maulotaur's dashing attack. It feels like the game force me to use the Krater, which is limited or doesn't exist in certain maps. But i have plenty of ammo, so can we expect it to stun and stop dashing when it goes to pain state?

just play E2M8 on hard, with 3 Maulotaurs. Im not sure if charge is disrupt by Pain (i hit him with shield before he bumps into me, & it appear to work. Shield hit always cause pain), his pain chance are low.

The difficulty of this fight was easy-average. Before Maulotarus charge was not homing on player, and this bull rush was disadvantage maneuver, never land on player, left Bull exposed for multiple projectiles attack, exclude him from combat for long time. This charge is doing low damage, even less if you block before impact. You can block it with Ice wall. You can guide the charge at another monsters. Maulotaur is not immortal anymore when he is charging.


- Maulotaurs can damage themselves with their fire magic.
hmm... maybe i give him Fire Resistance. It would also reduce the effectiveness of hammer in boss fights. Fire I presume is coming from flame downfall from exploding hammer projectile? Im not a fan of "donthurt source" flags, I believe in-fights and self damage are big part of fun factor in doom-esque games.

- You can see how much damage you gave to It and Iron Lich by looking at their sprite. But not D'Sparil and his Serpent, though.
D'Sparil is used only once in the game. And not in any other mappacks (that i play). He has already 2x step sequence. Im not sure if I want to draw extra sprites for all rotations just for that. Maybe I do something cheap like add blood stain (or hue the colors).


- I still can use Tomb of Power although all the pages are gone. Intentional?
yes,
there is risk of becoming chicken, if you keep doing that. Being a chicken is beneficial in multiple occasions- heal you back, you are faster, smaller (breaking level sequence when crouch is not enough :D ). im doing it on purpose often.



thanks

edit:
  • Maulotaur has 33% resistance to fire (hammer, tar, torch, own fire attacks)
  • maulotaur melee attack was improved, now he hit flying gargoyles and even zombies. Still if you crouch you avoid his attack.
  • add Dsparil footman a wound state (yes, only blue makeup, when his half HP. sorry i know you expect hanging guts that sway in the wind :) , give me a break)


edit:
i notice monsters never attack Maulotaurs :?: Well I wouldnt mess with them also, but that looks "special".
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