DoomArcana! (HexArcana V2.1)

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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Lagi » Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:18 pm

I agree cleric flask last a little too long.

Fighter flask could scatter group of enemies, because due to his melee weapons nature he want to kill one by one, to avoid getting ganked.

stamina is seen as annoying because its underused. Its not like proper another resource, next to mana's. F.ex. monster flask are useless now, because stamina regeneration is too fast. IMO you should be more harsh on players with it. And set it as 3rd fully fledged (or 4th for cleric) resource. Running should deplete stamina. Its nice that fighters attack use stamina. I like stamina.

Walking speed is fine, while running is little too fast - ok ok I know, its "doooom and you need to have reflex". I personally dont run because its OP, and for me its not how this games supposed to be played. Other against points is level traps. Running could be timely limited by stamina (what to do with no-stamina mage? My super stupid idea is to allow him fly on shift press, for the expense of arcane power)

1st weapons should be more fun to use. If for whole game you will have only 4 weapons, then each of it need to have multiple attack or utilities.
IMO mace is lacking here. attack (or powered attack) and self heal, is tad not enough. Mace is begging for some crowd control function - push back? stun? Contrary - fighter flying punch (with all its ridiculousness) is amazingly fun to use. Afrit bother you? here comes anti-air melee strike :D You feel like absolute bad-madmen who will break all the rules (gravity included) to slaughter some miserable opposition.

I need to dl some other hexen maps, to test your mod because i want to puke when i had to play 7portal hub.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby 4page » Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:22 pm

I must recommend Cyrgoth's Manor as a map pack. It's pretty solid.
I think you're right when it comes to stamina, I think it shouldn't regenerate when sprinting, at the very least. Also, since it's able to be disabled in the options, I could stand to be a little harsher with it. Also, in this next update you'll be able to bind a key to use stamina potions, AND there's an option to auto use potions once your stamina goes below a certain level. Maybe I should also put an option to display number of quartz flasks and stamina potions on the HUD. I did update the Warlock's 1st weapon. I think it's much better now. I feel a little stuck with the Mace, though. Pushback might be doable, but it kinda runs counter to using the class's only melee weapon in the first place, since now you have to run after the enemy you pushed back in order to whack them again. Stun seems like it would be a little bit over powered if it stuns them for any useful length of time, or just useless if only for a split second.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Lagi » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:36 am

4page wrote:I must recommend Cyrgoth's Manor as a map pack. It's pretty solid.

nice just play this morning.
Bow works well in term of damage balance. On full strain you one shoot ettins and centaurs, and it feels good - you work hard with timing and are rewarded with fast kill. Little cheap is you can walk around with max loaded bow, and kill first spot enemies - Magister should get tired after few sec.

4page wrote:I think you're right when it comes to stamina, I think it shouldn't regenerate when sprinting, at the very least. Also, since it's able to be disabled in the options, I could stand to be a little harsher with it. Also, in this next update you'll be able to bind a key to use stamina potions, AND there's an option to auto use potions once your stamina goes below a certain level.

nah... 4page, you still have too soft approach. Have an analogy : "maybe the weapon can not shoot without blue mana? or maybe i even slower the mana regeneration. I think good will be to have only 50% to have krater of might in every broken pot. At very least the player will have only 50% of starting blue mana each level"

Stamina need to regenerate SLOOW like 1 per 2sec. Running should deplete stamina, not just stop regeneration.
You need to have core, bread&butter "Tools" that use stamina - like power attacks or some skills - f.ex. you can bash each enemy in middle radius for 20 stamina. You can do double jump for 10 stamina. You can do a save-roll for 30 stamina. You can 5 sec stun enemy for 25 stamina.

4page wrote:I feel a little stuck with the Mace, though. Pushback might be doable, but it kinda runs counter to using the class's only melee weapon in the first place, since now you have to run after the enemy you pushed back in order to whack them again. Stun seems like it would be a little bit over powered if it stuns them for any useful length of time, or just useless if only for a split second.


doable (its not radius thrust, only victim):
Code: Select allExpand view
ACTOR kickPuff : StaffPuff
{
    ProjectileKickback 800
}

Pushback - yes&no. Thats why you need option swing mace OR push back. Second - what?! pushback is useful in melee esp. You want to face 1 enemy, not 6 at once. What is the purpose of disc of repulsion then? Projectile save? not only imo.

Stun - sorry, little overpower is GOOD its exactly what for you should aim for. 1 monster be stun for 5 sec? so what, player is facing 10+ of them at once. Mass enemy stun for split second - life saver in ganked situation. or for they attack interruption.

...more:
deflection of projectiles, temporary damage resist.

for mace i suggest:
new attack type that consume stamina -
1.mace will have backswing. If player double click (instead holding) attack when he do a backswing (timing req.). The animation stop for split sec, indicating more powerful attack, and backswing will render every monster in front flying back 10-20 m.
2. hold attack button (charge) the forswing for more dmg.

new skill that consume arcane power -
1.blinding in radius, stun of all monster for X sec (3? need test anyway)
2.prayer/holy shield - consume arcane power over time, but deflects projectile.
3. if you have enough arcane power, mace is glowing in darkness, add dynamic light = torch => its always useful.

ok, i neeed work now.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby 4page » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:59 am

Maybe you're right. But this is not the update to go too in depth into Stamina and Power abilities. Maybe later, I'm already way behind because I keep wanting to fix little things then bigger things. However, that idea for the mace is a pretty good one. I'll see how well I can implement it.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Crudux Cruo » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:19 pm

Crudux Cruo: I really appreciate your critique, especially now. Let's me tighten up a couple more things before getting out the next update. A few counterpoints, though.

Pleasure to play and give critique ;)

Axe: It costs that much because it's the only attack that costs blue mana, aside from Quietus. It's also got a decent range and damage and most importantly it heals you for a not insignificant amount. However, I've already dealt with this a bit and lowered it a little, though I may lower it a bit more, since I changed the axe a little.
Hammer: I kind of agree. Maybe it would be better to have it have a lot of knockback in the same radius, but deal a lot of damage a lot closer?
Flask: I've always found the Fighter's to be most useful since you can spam it at a bit of a distance. However, I can see how this might be the least useful. I think bumping up the throwing distance might help.


I'd have to see what you do with the axe, but i'd say that shot per shot the hammer feels much less powerful than the thrown axe does at double the mana. That's my main concern is the feel of the weapon seems off in comparison, regardless of the actual statistics - which are not insignificant.

The Hammer i think you've got the right idea - knockback in a circle, super damage up close. to make it still worth the mana price.

Flask: I feel like if the potion had a wider radius it would be more useful.
Bow: Maybe I should lower the damage values, and instead have the chain lightning jump more times when in rage mode. Unless you're talking about the rapid fire bow, in which case, I'll probably just up the mana cost a little bit.
Flask: Perhaps I shall make it last slightly shorter.


Again, i think you're on the right track. The chain lightning is too spammable and too powerful - so either make it slower and more expensive, or reduce the damage to more of a stun effect so you can use the primary, or something like that.

Flask: it's pretty good, but yeah, maybe a bit.

Magic missile: I completely (kinda) reworked this one. I think it's a little less powerful, but still very functional.
Fire/Ice: Ice costs so little and does so much damage because it's like a panic button. Mage only has 50 health so you REALLY don't want to get hit, so if something gets close you want something that will get rid of the problem quickly. Maybe it can cost a little more. Fireball, I agree, but I have yet to really come up with something good.
Arc: I feel like the primary is great for a room clear, since it attacks enemies all around it, which is why it costs more, whereas the secondary is mostly useful against enemies in a single line which in certain situations can be more powerful, yes, but it's certainly very situational, and I wanted it to be something that you can keep equipped for a while without running out of mana very fast. Which is why I made it do a lot more damage against the first enemy hit and less to enemies behind them. I completely rebuilt this one, though so it'll feel a bit different. I'll have to play both versions side by side to actually figure out if I made it more or less powerful and adjust it accordingly.
BloodScourge: As crazy as the powered secondary is, it has very limited usefulness since it's only in an isolated area. The update makes it a lot more crazy. I should really up the mana cost on the secondary, since I made the unpowered a lot better as well....
Flask: Maybe I'll bump the damage down a little. I had left the damage from the mage's original, but I think I upped the range.


I love playing the mage, and yes, i do realize he's a glass cannon so he should be doing more damage to compensate for his frame.

Looking forward to the magic missile rework

Fire and Ice i do understand the rationale. For the flame secondary powered up, maybe like a magma flame burst or something that sets the floor on fire, in addition to flames, in a large radius.

Arc is pretty good, but it's pretty strong... i'll look forward to testing the adjustments

Bloodscourge - sounds good

Flask: Yeah, the damage is a little intense.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Crudux Cruo » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:22 pm

Also, as far as the mace goes, I agree charged attacks should be a thing, LIKE the warrior. i like the idea of a backswing that does more damage to the first enemy it hits and knocks back other enemies. I think, in general, mace strikes should cost the cleric more stamina than the warrior however.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby 4page » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:26 pm

Alright, the update is coming along, nearing completion, but I need some opinions on this. I agree the mace needed some adjustments, but I'm unsure about what I have. Basically you have a normal swing and holding it does just a series of normal swings. However if you let go, and wait a moment you will follow up with a powered swing that lunges you forward, deals some area damage, pushes the enemy back, and costs a bit more stamina.

Thoughts? Critiques? Suggestions?
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Lagi » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:45 am

4page wrote:...normal swing and holding it does just a series of normal swings. However if you let go, and wait a moment you will follow up with a powered swing that lunges you forward, deals some area damage, pushes the enemy back, and costs a bit more stamina.

Thoughts? Critiques? Suggestions?


Its great improvement.
There is some skill involved with mace bashing: by clicking button instead holding, you deliver better blows. Thats a 1000% upgrade (ten times better) in term of gameplay. Its good that there are 3 modes of attacks.

Its hard to tell what attack mode you use, because they all look similar - fast mace bashing. I re-watch mace clip 5x times, and then I notice the differences.
you start with foreswing, and then you can keep a combo of slower strong hits - nice.

normal swing and white swing are okish - white is little slower, more impactful, do more damage and push back monster a little.
the difference between white and red, is only noticeable because of the extra FX (fire ring, and flame puff on monsters)

what I will do:
- backswing should be more visible. Lift it up, to the center of screen, esp. if the swing is so fast.
- ready sprite of mace should look different in each fire mode
- white power swing should push back a 50% more.
- for normal swing i would slow down the attacks, if stamina is 30% or lower.

+difference between fire and white glowing strike:
I will slow the animation a lot (4page by a lot i mean 1 strike per 0,75 second - yeah that slow, not +1 tic). so its obvious difference that now we are in slow power mode.
Make each hit launch enemies in radius into the air.
Spoiler: https://zdoom.org/wiki/A_RadiusThrust

4page! hey... LIKE THIS SLOW

The damage should be set so 65% of time fire+powered swing is killing the ettin with one hit.
So player can have a picture that he render fly 4 ettins in front, from which 2x die in the air.
Also it make this feeling - lots of monster in front of you, "feel my wraith", player press R, and then deplete resources faster than TP is sold in stores, for delivering a mayhem.

and this mayhem is balance by the fact that you need good timing of hitting and keep position to not get hurt by monster when you open

P.S. you kill all those ettins, and dont have to refill your stamina. Till the end you have 16 monster flask. Also mace bashing dont use arcane power at all.
You introducing new resources that have no use. You dont have to pay with them for doing awesome stuff. They like money, in an store where everything is for free.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby 4page » Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:14 am

I'm not entirely sure the best way to launch multiple enemies back.. RadiusThrust works, sure, but in order for it to move them more than a meter or two you need to bump that number extremely high, and then if you put RTF_THRUSTZ on at that point it just launches the suckers into space! Though I suppose I could have two separate RadiusThrusts, one large to knock enemies back, the other smaller to knock them upwards.

Using the Fire powered rage ring regenerates your stamina. Though that was an early decision and can easily be changed.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Crudux Cruo » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:44 pm

I think that's on the right track for sure, but I do think that the cost of stamina and soulpower should be considerably more, and that all powered attacks should be side swipe attacks - the utility is that it's crowd control.

-The thrust could be a bit more robust. A_RadiusThrust or A_Blast is what it'd do.
-The damage should be no more than a two shot ettin kill. That's pretty heavy.
-as an option, a really STRONG strike could be a sorta smitey type thing that would cost a significant amount of faith and stamina and one shot kill an ettin (a SINGULAR attack, perhaps a leaping attack with holy explosive damage not dissimlar from the hammer groundpound, but weaker and doing a massive repel effect against enemies sending them flying into walls and such. Think Sauron mace type stuff.

Because the Cleric only has one melee weapon, it should be able to attack quickly (as seen should be fine), have a charge attack (the attack in if only horizontal swipes should suffice) and perhaps for a charged secondary a attack as described above.

I do believe it would be best if stamina was not regenerated for the cleric.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby 4page » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:58 pm

Crudux Cruo: To basically all of that, the video was mostly to gauge thoughts on things like the timing, the implementation, the audio/visual cues. Thrust will be much more robust, damage is upped, stamina and arcane costs are being worked on. I want to keep the heal on the mace, and in interest of avoiding feature creep and over complicating things, I don't think I'll be able to fit anything else on the mace. I'm not sure what you mean stamina shouldn't regenerate for the cleric. Do you mean I should have it solely given by the Monster flasks, and the mace/bow should be useable without stamina, except in some edge cases like the mace power swing, and maybe a fully drawn bow? That would severely limit the useability of those, since in a lot of maps quartz flasks are in extremely rare supply, and only half of those become monster flasks.

Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to come off as rude, I do appreciate the input, even if I may disagree with it. XD
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby 4page » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:30 pm

Just thought I'd show the slew of changes to the mace since last night and get your opinions on it, if you'd like to chime in.

Once again, thoughts, feelings, opinions, critiques?
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Crudux Cruo » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:41 pm

4page wrote:Crudux Cruo: To basically all of that, the video was mostly to gauge thoughts on things like the timing, the implementation, the audio/visual cues. Thrust will be much more robust, damage is upped, stamina and arcane costs are being worked on. I want to keep the heal on the mace, and in interest of avoiding feature creep and over complicating things, I don't think I'll be able to fit anything else on the mace. I'm not sure what you mean stamina shouldn't regenerate for the cleric. Do you mean I should have it solely given by the Monster flasks, and the mace/bow should be useable without stamina, except in some edge cases like the mace power swing, and maybe a fully drawn bow? That would severely limit the useability of those, since in a lot of maps quartz flasks are in extremely rare supply, and only half of those become monster flasks.

Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to come off as rude, I do appreciate the input, even if I may disagree with it. XD


I didn't take it as rude at all :)

"Using the Fire powered rage ring regenerates your stamina."


I don't think the cleric should get a bonus the warrior doesn't if you're going to massively up his damage is my point - stamina is the way to balance how many heavy swings can be made and if the cleric has too much stamina or each attack drains too little, it just becomes sorta easy to abuse the new power.

I like the speed of the second video perfectly, it looks great. just needs to be less damage and more spirit drain. maybe a little more knockback.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby 4page » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:44 pm

Oh, you meant no stamina regen from the Fire Rage Ring, right? That makes a lot more sense than just nixing the passive stamina regen in total. But, yes, that is the conclusion I came to in the end.
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Re: HexArcana (V1.2)

Postby Lagi » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:54 am

launching ettin into the air with power strike is great. also you can clearly now see when you doing power attacks, and when its bashing. Also I notice that you in combat was self healing self to boost stamina - that very cool gameplay with resource managment. Its going in good direction.

I notice you thrust into air with every powersswing, without Rage, even without ArcanePower - with normal mace. I think it would be nice if:
-normal powerswing (no arcane) - just hit few monster in front, no pushback (or small)
-glowing powerswing - push back in radius (significant)
-rage powerswing - thrust into the air in R

also from every mace attack each etting is going into extreme death, maybe would be good to utilize normal death from normal attack and left Xdeath for rage kills and glowing power attacks?
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