Heretical Doom v1.5 - Cyberdemons and Maulotaurs, oh my!

[Gadosen]

Found a bug with the Gauntlets... when you pick it up they have this flechette throwing mode and after you change weapons and select it again it goes back to normal state
Also can you make a CVAR with the traditional Morph Ovum? Please? XD

[Gadosen]

Also found another bug which you can pick up gold wand crystals even when you reach maximum capacity

[AvzinElkein]

Also found another bug which you can pick up gold wand crystals even when you reach maximum capacity

Intentional; picking up ammo when it's full charges your Krater of Might; once it's fully charged, you can use it to refill all ammo for all your weapons. Also, that flechette thing? Slot 9. Hit reload to switch color, fire to use a flechette of that color, and altfire to spend mana to gain a flechette of that color.

[Ryuhi]

Also found another bug which you can pick up gold wand crystals even when you reach maximum capacity

Intentional; picking up ammo when it's full charges your Krater of Might; once it's fully charged, you can use it to refill all ammo for all your weapons. Also, that flechette thing? Slot 9. Hit reload to switch color, fire to use a flechette of that color, and altfire to spend mana to gain a flechette of that color.

Bingo

Also, the traditional morph ovum is still there, its the normal colored one. The self use one is the golden one.

[Gadosen]

Also found another bug which you can pick up gold wand crystals even when you reach maximum capacity

Intentional; picking up ammo when it's full charges your Krater of Might; once it's fully charged, you can use it to refill all ammo for all your weapons. Also, that flechette thing? Slot 9. Hit reload to switch color, fire to use a flechette of that color, and altfire to spend mana to gain a flechette of that color.

Bingo

Also, the traditional morph ovum is still there, its the normal colored one. The self use one is the golden one.

Well... mistakes were made *roll credits*
Thanks for the explanation everbody
And congratulations for the amazing mod Mr. Ryuhi o/

[Ryuhi]

I don't know about all of that, but I'm glad you're enjoying it!

[Terces0]

Found a bug. level 25's double mana regen doesn't seem to be working.

[Ryuhi]

Looks like something got missed in the last save. Just reuploaded with the following fixes:

- Staff deselect is no longer instant on Classic Mode
- Mana regen should speed up properly after level 25

[ShockwaveS08]

I've been trying out the new mechanics regarding the Staff and Gauntlets of the Necromancer, and have come across a game-breaking issue, regarding game balance.

Step 1: Equip the Gauntlets.
Step 2: Use the Reload key to drain your health and restock mana.
Step 3: Switch to the Staff and activate the Spell of Power.
Step 4: Use the appropriate key combinations to procure a Quartz Flask or Mystic Urn.
Step 5: Repeatedly heal with the Reload key until fully healed.
Step 6: Use the gauntlets to restock mana, heal up with the Staff, and then use the Tomed Gauntlets to stock up on normal and enchanted Shields.
Step 7: Repeat this cycle ad infinitum until you are either heavily-stocked on these items, or until you get bored.

I myself have generated 5 Iron Shields, 22 Quartz Flasks, and 11 Mystic Urns using this method. May I suggest implementing a limit to the procuring capabilities of the Staff and Gauntlets, so as to maintain overall challenge?

[Ryuhi]

I mean, if you want to sit there and waste tons of time doing that, that's on you. In the time you've done that, you could have also cleared a map or two. Not only that, but quartz flasks had their max capacity scaled back quite a bit (you can only have a max of 25, and you can only carry 16 between levels) as did the Mystic Urn (down to 16/10 respectively) Those mechanics are made to be used in a pinch on mapsets that are incredibly stingy with health/armor (especially when paired with more difficult monster mods.) Theoretically you could completely stock up on everything that can be generated... but what would you have accomplished?

Inventory will be getting some more rebalancing in the next patch overall, so I guess keep an eye out for that in the future.

[Robban]

So, I've been meaning to give you feedback for a while now, but not being sure about how to get my thoughts across in a constructive manner.

I stay behind my opinion that while what you've done is nothing short of incredible in terms of scripting (though, what the hell do I know, I don't do scripting), your ideas don't exactly come together to form a singular, coherent experience. I don't believe this is necessarily a bad thing, because a lot of people enjoy "playground" type of games. It might also be that you're not even following a singular idea, but simply testing out different things, seeing all the possibilities there are. And this is already more than amazing. I see your work as a huge pool of ideas, all of which could become their own games. By looking at your work, I'm already thinking multiple different games. Here's two:

Idea 1:
Have a Heretic mod that is purely based around the melee staff. Considering the staff can already be used for incredibly powerful attacks, taking care of multiple opponents at once, blocking/reflecting, jumping, and even flying, who the hell even needs firearms anymore? There could be vast maps with lots of verticality designed solely on the staff's traversal mechanics, enemies that introduce different kind of challenges in regards to the melee attacks. Hell, you could even have airborne combat? This system is simply way too deep to just function alongside normal shooting gameplay.

Idea 2:
Considering that Modern Magister mode has magic use in its center, I find there are many, many ways to improve on the mana system itself. The latest version I've tried had regenerating mana, ways to make mana regenerate in an instant, ways to heal yourself in an instant, and whatnot. This is not game design, this is a power fantasy. The magic system is actually a fantastic idea, but to make it have actual weight would require making mana into an actual resource. Why even have health items, you could turn healing into a purely magic-related action. Why have ways to regenerate mana? Doesn't that mean infinite resources = breaking the game in every possible way? Make mana a resource players have to use wisely. Weapons powered up, flying, or healing, when you can't have all, all the time, players are suddenly tasked with making a choice. And games are all about choices, either long term, or immediate. Choices don't matter if they don't have weight. Choices matter, when they come with risks and rewards. Why not even turn all the basic health items into mana items?

I also don't see the previous two ideas working together, as both are way too complex on their own. Heretic can get pretty hectic, especially on higher difficulty settings, and having multiple systems to juggle around with constantly is not elegant game design. I believe that already at this point, your mod is simply doing way too many things at once. While all the features you've created are, as I stated before, nothing short of amazing in terms of how well they actually work, game design isn't all about what the player can do, but also what they can't. To give your mod more momentum, and weight, I would choose a more singular focus and then start changing all the moving parts around that.

However, as long as you feel satisfied with your work, make no mistake, you should definitely continue on the same path. Especially considering that quite a few people are enjoying your work very much.

[zitro1987]

I appreciate the option of slowing down experience level-ups and set it at 50%. Using a mod, I currently play on 125% damage received to balance out the extra healing, -66% damage inflicted (-80% when tome of power used) to have damage rates similar to vanilla doom (plus double-ammo), and DoomRL monsters which are more difficult. While this seems extremely harsh and near-impossible in other mods, difficulty is still comparable or easier than vanilla doom. the thing is that your mod makes the game absurdly easy to play even without powerups. I'm not sure if this is the intention, but everything about it is designed to make the game easier, especially with tome of power.

I'd like to see additional options, mainly relating to powerups which are surprisingly strong and accessible via either classic and modern caster options.

Option: Mana regeneration slider (my own preference would be setting at 25% as otherwise I have tomb of power in nearly all difficult scenarios)

Option or feature: +10 healing vials to also grant +5 mana (would work well combined with a low/no regeneration option)

Option: PowerUp duration slider mainly for classic - (my own preference would be 33-50%, thus 20 to 30 seconds for tomb of power)

Option (classic mode): Invisibility, tome of power, etc get activated as pickup instead of held (more vanilla doom and applicable to regular wads, less hoarding for easy boss battle)

Option: Items do not carry over level by level
Option: Fewer items carry over level by level (a shield or two … 5 or so health items)

Option: Backups grants/does not grant items (or grants just 1 item). Granting 3-4 items can severely break balance in certain wads (and lvls 6,7 of Doom2 maps) given map makers thought backpacks just generate a bit of ammo, so I like having the option if I encounter those maps.

Option: Power Tome attacks deal -33% damage (for the player seeking balance/challenge) - may need boosting weapon tome damage for #1,2,regular 3, alt#6


Balance not related to options (in perspective of -66% to -50% damage dealing via CustomDoom):
*Ammo for weapon #5 is fairly rare, grants less than plasma doom (probably not a bad thing, but jarring difference)
*Ammo for weapons 6,7 are shared by same pick-up which is the rockets/boxes. The ammo gained by these pickups would probably be ok if it was cut in half to compensate for granting 2 ammo types.
*Gauntlets regular attack is not very damaging, much lower than weapon #4 talon quad attack which happens from a distance Suggest 33-40% more
*Gauntlers alt attack does not consume ammo? deals more damage per second than crossbow's 5-ammo attack. Suggest 25-33% less.
*Weapon #8 attacks do not consume much ammo for what they do. At the very minimum for this power, an attack should cost as much ammo as its damage output on a fairly normal scenario as it would be done by weapon #6. Most likely, it would mean 15-20 ammo for attack #1 and 25+ ammo for the summon attack #2.
*I don't think weapon #6 alt attack is working (it is supposed to do combos, but doesn't work for me).
*I personally don't like the urn teleporting to entrance - traveling towards where you were is boring and sometimes impossible depending on map.

Power Tome: Crossbow's alt fire and pretty much everything regular/alt weapons 4 and beyond other than #6 alt is absurdly overpowered, especially for lasting 60 seconds (classic) or more (modern). If the mod is to have a complete break of balance and slaughter everything conveniently, I understand, but for balance, all of these should deal at least 40% or -50% damage less, at least as an option.
*Golden Wand Power Tome Alt Attack deals underwhelming damage compare to other weapons (rare for OP nature of tome) and would be interesting in a more slower 'railgun' style, missing in mod. Suggest third fire rate, 10 ammo per use, and +300-400% damage
*Crossbow's double-attack (alt tome) fires as fast as single-attack despite 2X damage. Slow rate of fire by 2.
*#4 talon attack only uses 1 ammo per shot, I would expect at least 5. Damage on par with other tome attacks (meaning overpowered, but not more than usual)

[Ryuhi]

So, I've been meaning to give you feedback for a while now, but not being sure about how to get my thoughts across in a constructive manner.

I stay behind my opinion that while what you've done is nothing short of incredible in terms of scripting (though, what the hell do I know, I don't do scripting), your ideas don't exactly come together to form a singular, coherent experience. I don't believe this is necessarily a bad thing, because a lot of people enjoy "playground" type of games. It might also be that you're not even following a singular idea, but simply testing out different things, seeing all the possibilities there are. And this is already more than amazing. I see your work as a huge pool of ideas, all of which could become their own games. By looking at your work, I'm already thinking multiple different games. Here's two:

You are very correct with your assumption that the mod contains a pool of ideas. It's actually my first mod, so there has been a lot of experimenting. Its also why a few things have been getting scaled back/altered/removed with each version. I have begun working on another project which is much more structured in its premise and having it lay its own foundation, but it is still a ways off.

Idea 1:
Have a Heretic mod that is purely based around the melee staff. Considering the staff can already be used for incredibly powerful attacks, taking care of multiple opponents at once, blocking/reflecting, jumping, and even flying, who the hell even needs firearms anymore? There could be vast maps with lots of verticality designed solely on the staff's traversal mechanics, enemies that introduce different kind of challenges in regards to the melee attacks. Hell, you could even have airborne combat? This system is simply way too deep to just function alongside normal shooting gameplay.

This is both awesome and something I have been considering for two other mod ideas, which will be much more of a beat em up fashion with very minimal projectiles. I don't want to say much about them, but basically you are correct. A lot of these features DO break map design (part of the reason I removed the flight spell to stymie it just a tad) and when I get to be not-terrible at mapping, I plan to move on to at least 1 TC project. That might be a while off though

Idea 2:
Considering that Modern Magister mode has magic use in its center, I find there are many, many ways to improve on the mana system itself. The latest version I've tried had regenerating mana, ways to make mana regenerate in an instant, ways to heal yourself in an instant, and whatnot. This is not game design, this is a power fantasy. The magic system is actually a fantastic idea, but to make it have actual weight would require making mana into an actual resource. Why even have health items, you could turn healing into a purely magic-related action. Why have ways to regenerate mana? Doesn't that mean infinite resources = breaking the game in every possible way? Make mana a resource players have to use wisely. Weapons powered up, flying, or healing, when you can't have all, all the time, players are suddenly tasked with making a choice. And games are all about choices, either long term, or immediate. Choices don't matter if they don't have weight. Choices matter, when they come with risks and rewards. Why not even turn all the basic health items into mana items?

Balancing mana regeneration has been a point of contention for both myself and others for a while, and is likely going to be changing with each update for a bit until I get it to a place I'm happy with it. My main issue with making mana too restrictive is that it will cause players to be less likely to experiment and branch out with the magic system, and instead just save it for using the power spell exclusively. I've been trying to make the other spells more desirable, and have plans to nerf mana regeneration at lower levels (possibly even removing it, and tying it to pickups like exp) but thats all speculation that I will be spending many hours playtesting as I work it out more. While there is still currently a way to "mana swap" by exploiting the staff's healing spell, it is at least far more time consuming than it used to be which (at least for me) greatly deters any desire to abuse it. That said, a lot of these resource options are to help circumvent when mapping can be particularly cruel with them, so balance comes from other factors instead (like the higher difficulties having infighting disabled, higher aggressiveness, etc.)

I also don't see the previous two ideas working together, as both are way too complex on their own. Heretic can get pretty hectic, especially on higher difficulty settings, and having multiple systems to juggle around with constantly is not elegant game design. I believe that already at this point, your mod is simply doing way too many things at once. While all the features you've created are, as I stated before, nothing short of amazing in terms of how well they actually work, game design isn't all about what the player can do, but also what they can't. To give your mod more momentum, and weight, I would choose a more singular focus and then start changing all the moving parts around that.

However, as long as you feel satisfied with your work, make no mistake, you should definitely continue on the same path. Especially considering that quite a few people are enjoying your work very much.

Simplifying systems is absolutely a goal I have in mind, even if I'm not outright gutting mechanics. I've gotten a lot of great feedback on a few things that are a bit bloated and can use some streamlining for both ease of use and understanding, and its a direction I hope to continue improving as my scripting gets better. The two inventories (items and mana) are one that will definitely be getting some work when I figure out the required skills to improve them, as I have seen some wonderful mods for weapon wheels, mini menus, and other creative ways to make such management more organic. Feedback like what you've given me is exactly what I hope for, as I tend to get desensitized to some things after playing it with various mods on various map packs. One thing I do plan to do very soon is improve Classic Caster mode and actually introduce Corvette, and I hope it will become both universally balanced to "slightly above vanilla" while still being exciting and structured.

Thanks for the insight, its been super helpful

[Ryuhi]

I appreciate the option of slowing down experience level-ups and set it at 50%. Using a mod, I currently play on 125% damage received to balance out the extra healing, -66% damage inflicted (-80% when tome of power used) to have damage rates similar to vanilla doom (plus double-ammo), and DoomRL monsters which are more difficult. While this seems extremely harsh and near-impossible in other mods, difficulty is still comparable or easier than vanilla doom. the thing is that your mod makes the game absurdly easy to play even without powerups. I'm not sure if this is the intention, but everything about it is designed to make the game easier, especially with tome of power.

The overall idea for Modern Magister mode is to expand on the mod it started from, Brutal Heretic. The magic system was actually in a conceptual state when I picked up the project, so I used it as a starting point for both inspiration and a bit of help designing. A lot of the other ideas were based on a combination of feedback and limit testing, which is why I've been cutting a few things back with the introduction of others. When it comes to difficulty, I have been working on making the higher difficulties (especially the hidden one) quite difficult even with the amount of options the player has, often making them feel much more crucial with some encounters. I will definitely have to try the DoomRL monsters combo, because I absolutely love pairing it with Colorful Hell and turning the bonus drop frequency down (especially with its latest version's expansion on that.)

I'd like to see additional options, mainly relating to powerups which are surprisingly strong and accessible via either classic and modern caster options.

Option: Mana regeneration slider (my own preference would be setting at 25% as otherwise I have tomb of power in nearly all difficult scenarios)

Option or feature: +10 healing vials to also grant +5 mana (would work well combined with a low/no regeneration option)

Option: PowerUp duration slider mainly for classic - (my own preference would be 33-50%, thus 20 to 30 seconds for tomb of power)

Option (classic mode): Invisibility, tome of power, etc get activated as pickup instead of held (more vanilla doom and applicable to regular wads, less hoarding for easy boss battle)

Option: Items do not carry over level by level
Option: Fewer items carry over level by level (a shield or two … 5 or so health items)

Option: Backups grants/does not grant items (or grants just 1 item). Granting 3-4 items can severely break balance in certain wads (and lvls 6,7 of Doom2 maps) given map makers thought backpacks just generate a bit of ammo, so I like having the option if I encounter those maps.

Option: Power Tome attacks deal -33% damage (for the player seeking balance/challenge) - may need boosting weapon tome damage for #1,2,regular 3, alt#6

These are mostly very good suggestions, and I do plan to at least have many of them be things the player can adjust to their liking. Part of the reason I released so many CVARs with this latest version is because I've been really getting down how they can be used in various expressions, and even reading how some of those are worded has given me a few ideas on how to implement them. There are still a few that you did not list that I plan to make adjustable, so I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised in future versions

Balance not related to options (in perspective of -66% to -50% damage dealing via CustomDoom):
*Ammo for weapon #5 is fairly rare, grants less than plasma doom (probably not a bad thing, but jarring difference)
*Ammo for weapons 6,7 are shared by same pick-up which is the rockets/boxes. The ammo gained by these pickups would probably be ok if it was cut in half to compensate for granting 2 ammo types.
*Gauntlets regular attack is not very damaging, much lower than weapon #4 talon quad attack which happens from a distance Suggest 33-40% more
*Gauntlers alt attack does not consume ammo? deals more damage per second than crossbow's 5-ammo attack. Suggest 25-33% less.
*Weapon #8 attacks do not consume much ammo for what they do. At the very minimum for this power, an attack should cost as much ammo as its damage output on a fairly normal scenario as it would be done by weapon #6. Most likely, it would mean 15-20 ammo for attack #1 and 25+ ammo for the summon attack #2.
*I don't think weapon #6 alt attack is working (it is supposed to do combos, but doesn't work for me).
*I personally don't like the urn teleporting to entrance - traveling towards where you were is boring and sometimes impossible depending on map.
Power Tome: Crossbow's alt fire and pretty much everything regular/alt weapons 4 and beyond other than #6 alt is absurdly overpowered, especially for lasting 60 seconds (classic) or more (modern). If the mod is to have a complete break of balance and slaughter everything conveniently, I understand, but for balance, all of these should deal at least 40% or -50% damage less, at least as an option.
*Golden Wand Power Tome Alt Attack deals underwhelming damage compare to other weapons (rare for OP nature of tome) and would be interesting in a more slower 'railgun' style, missing in mod. Suggest third fire rate, 10 ammo per use, and +300-400% damage
*Crossbow's double-attack (alt tome) fires as fast as single-attack despite 2X damage. Slow rate of fire by 2.
*#4 talon attack only uses 1 ammo per shot, I would expect at least 5. Damage on par with other tome attacks (meaning overpowered, but not more than usual)

These are pretty valid concerns, so to answer:

-The Hellstaff functions a bit different from the plasma rifle, and it also does not share ammo with another weapon.
-For the ammo types that bundle together, it is something I have been trying to balance across each core IWAD. Technically it is the most balanced in Heretic (as it has the same number of ammo types, obviously) but I plan to work on ammo balance entirely within each game. The goal I've set myself for future versions is to make it so that the player rarely has completely full ammo at any given time when playing vanilla maps and having no ammo modifiers in mapinfo options. Mapsets and monster mods can, of course, throw this out of balance, but its what I plan to strive for.
-The Dragon Claw has been getting a few nerfs, and will be getting some more to come. The altfire has great sustained potential damage which I do plan to tone down and/or increase the cost.
-The Sidhe Wrath has not been getting as much love as it should over the past few patches, and will definitely be looked at further. Hopefully I'll even be able to finish the damn powered altfire I've been storming for it for a while now.
-For the Phoenix Rod combos, you have to charge the altfire to level two (the one that looks kinda like a lava ball) and then shoot it in midair before it either detonates or is destroyed. Keep in mind, it IS shootable, so enemies can deny your combo as well. I tried to make it a bit easier to pull off by having it decelerate, giving the player time to switch weapons and line up the shot.
-You will probably like what I have planned for the Urn when I finally do "the animation update." The teleport to the start was mainly something I came up with to prevent it from causing death loops, but I do plan to find a much better way.
-The highest level powered altfires initially took full megawads to even be attainable, and were intended to be for the end of campaigns. With the changes I've started with the experience system, I do plan to make these less powerful at base, with their current strength being more of an "upper cap." The implementation of perks at various levels was testing the waters a bit for this to affect more aspects of the game, making the player feel like their increasing strength is relative to what they've endured.
-The Gold Wand powered altfire actually is a railgun, but I'm still new to the function so its a bit underwhelming at the moment. Considering how badly I've been messing up RIPPER I was a bit hesitant to make it too poweful, but I agree that its a bit lacklustre currently.
-Crossbow animations will be improved across the board, and will better reflect the difference in attacks.
-Tomed attacks in general will be getting an ammo usage change to come, so your concern about the Dragon claw is duly noted

Thank you for the suggestions, and I can't believe I havent thought of using CustomDoom to try out some of the value adjustments before I have to rewrite entire sections. That alone will save me an absurd amount of time testing things! Seriously I can't think you guys enough for this kind of feedback, its amazingly helpful!

[JasmairoQY]

The Shock Combo does have some kind of auto targeting with the Hellstaff combo, right? Sometimes it seems like it tries to fire at the targets rather than being random.

But to be honest i dont find it too useful when the enemies can walk into the point of origin where the bullets are coming and cancel the effect like it was nothing, long before it reaches its full potential.