[3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Yholl » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:38 pm

VicBorAng wrote:Now i'm just throwing it to the wind, but I feel like that maybe a tighter spread over a longer distance would help at least make this weapon usefull for long distance enemies.
it could use a buff of some kind. (two extra pellets, or a more consistent damage amount closer to the high damage to go with the theme of precision this shotgun has?)

It's interesting to note how other shotguns have gone trough what it seems this shotgun theme is, accuracy/consistency. The Scope Shotgun from Plutonia seems to have more clustered pellets but as the description says is no sniper rifle. And the Ancient Aliens "Ancient Shotgun" has an accurate slug.
The middle shot from the shotgun is actually stronger than the others. I'd rather nerf the burst shotgun than buff the tac shotgun, as you have increased shell counts in TNT.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby VicBorAng » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:25 pm

Yholl wrote:The middle shot from the shotgun is actually stronger than the others. I'd rather nerf the burst shotgun than buff the tac shotgun, as you have increased shell counts in TNT.

Oh really. huh. Well alright then.
As much as i loved the Burst Shotgun, I can see that giving it a bit of a nerf would certainly make the other weapons in its weaponset shine more.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby VicBorAng » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:26 pm

So... So... So... So..

I've at last reached the end of what was my initial plan. And finished every weaponset with their respective mapsets. (Well, except for Doom 2 but i'm not doing that. I already did a playtrough of Thy Flesh consumed for it.)

After a small break, going trough TFC with the Doom 2 weaponset. I returned to Plutonia.
And Well, From what i gathered the rebalancing of the Doom2 weapons seems to be a buff in general.
Though i think this one has the most "eh" fist tier weapon. Damage is fine, but animation isn't as impactful as later fisticuffs would be.

Well. Plutonia huh. Hardest commercialized release so they say.
Not gonna lie. It kinda is. I think it's the hardest of the ones i played yet.
Alien Vandetta i think came close, but due to large numbers of enemies. While Plutonia had fewer enemies.
But the enemy placement and level design was just... evil. I knew of some traps beforehand.
And copious amounts of Quicksaving mitigated a lot of the frustrations.
But i think the most surprising thing was the level design. It still was very abstract. But the extra textures and theming of each level and architecture were neat. Using liquid textures to complete the color coordination was a good touch, even if it left rules a bit fast and loose.

I was doing two playtroughs of each map, the first on HMP, Then On UV. Map 6 was the one i stopped doing that and did the rest all on UV after acquiring some confidence.
Map07: Not Dead-Simple was a funny story.
You know. As i struggled to kill Revenants while running in circles. As the Grenade Launcher turned on me. I acquired the need to see how other sets would work here. Of course, my belief was that AV Phased-Tachyon Cannon would make the job easier. But i'm not sure. Me myself, kinda have to stop in place to use it well. And That could mean death.
The Hellbound C4 really was useful here.

This mapset took me quite a while to get to the point i just wanted to get it over with. I think it was somewhere near the late red sky hellish levels. Where i started to get impatient waiting for the flesh sky devil-hive portion.

SO.
Weapons huh.

Power Saw: Poor Poor Power Saw. Put in the unkind position of being the last of the Chainsaw tier weapons to be experienced. Also, not sure if Plutonia is conductive to uh, close quarters. I'm trying to not compare them to other sets too much. But man, so far it seems that the Halderman Device would have been a lot more used and appreciated if i had it now.
Similar to the Chainsaw, in that it is a melee weapon that deals damage very quickly.
But i didn't use it very often. Because... uh... i don't think Plutonia was very conductive to Meelee Attacks.

Melee: As i went trough the first Plutonia Maps i wrote this "Yeah. I'm not sure if the Plutonia Map set is conductive to punching. Let's wait and see." And well. I was right.
There weren't that many situations where i felt safe to punch things out, and the Berserk Packs were scarce.

See, this reinforces my idea to do a playtrough of all mapsets on a randomly generated Oblidge mapset. Placing all the weapon sets on an equally unfamiliar ground. That is a bit more gentle will definitely allow for some things to shine.

Revolver: It's called the Ol' Reliable because it IS. It's my favorite of the initially released pistol tier weapons. Powerful, precise and with a quick reload. Damage is good, killing a zombieman on a single shot (as rare as they are in this mapset), and blowing up barrels with a single shot too.

Scoped Shotgun: Yeah, i'm just going to say. A lot of Plutonia weapons are really "The standard weapons, but better", much more precise then then standard shotgun. And does it job well at dealing decent damage to long range enemies until you get something better.

Super Shotgun: More pellets, but bigger spread. It's fine, i don't tend to use the Super Shotgun for far away enemies. Great for point blank shots. Great for Archviles too.

Machinegun: Not much different from the Chaingun. I think the damage is a bit higher and it fires faster. But an all around good, reliable dps. I tried using the chaingun tier weapon a bit more this time. Since i have a tendency to forget about them. And whenever i did i tended to use it for quite a while. Great for putting enemies in a pain state. Revenants, Mancubi, Pain Elementals and Cacodemons. Human soldiers and Imps too. All can be reliably killed with it.

Grenade Launcher: Learning that it isn't affected by gravity until it hit a wall was a game changer. If the C4 was good for setting traps for enemies you knew were coming, Then The Grenades are great for trick shots. Hitting enemies around corners, and up stairways, without exposing yourself. And as another plus it deals a lot of damage. Witch i think it's mostly splash damage. At the same time, the bouncing shots were often my own undoing. This is a weapon the requires skill in order to be reliable. If you miss a shot, you better know it's going to land near the enemy. Because it could go right back to you. I often use the rocket tier weapons to damage enemies i couldn't hit reliably by hitting the wall behind them and taking advantage of the splash damage. But this one strategy is way harder to do here. And at the same time. I was still causing a lot of damage to enemies without getting in their field of view. An acceptable trade-off i say.

Heavy Machinegun: When i tested the weapons for the first time. I liked the Heavy Machinegun. As i played the mapsets, the Heavy Machinegun stayed on my mind. The sound, the damage, the utility all combine to make this weapon is really fun, gibbing all enemies that can be turned into gibs with a few well placed shots. And also quite a lot of damage. Also very accurate if you know how to use it. This weapon was always going to end up as one of my favorites i think.

Quantum Accelerator: So, it seems that this BFG replacement is meant to be the Prototype Accelerator from the Plutonia story right! It's name, description, and pickup line all point to that. Tying the story with the weaponset.
I like that. It's very cool.
This one is a powerful one, and unleashes an area of death wherever you point and fire it at. As always a good Archvile deleting tool, and also very good at dealing with large mobs. Not powerful enough to kill a Cyberdemon right away, but a few uses of this will whittle it's health to manageable levels.

I can say for certain that this weaponset changed the way i would approach encounters. The Grenades weren't as conductive to being fired at will For example, but using it to deal damage , and the Heavy Machinegun made some encounters play very differently then from what i saw was with the plasma rifle.


And so... This journey i started... a year ago, i think. Has finally come to a close...

But we aren't done yet.
There's still a bonus round.
9 weaponsets, 9 weapons each, against the same randomly generated oblidge mapset. Cages and hallways and 3D floors and open spaces oh my.
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Joined: 15 Apr 2016

Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Syrion » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:43 pm

As someone who is mainly interested in total conversion mods for Doom, Final Doomer is really almost all I could ever wish for, turning all these megawads into proper TC's for me, with the exception of monsters (Final Doomer Monster Pack, that would be something!). Coupled with Beautiful Doom this is, for me, Doom at its best. So, thank you for it! (Note: BD mostly works well with FD and the wads. Ancient Aliens requires a few tweaks 3saster thankfully put together in a patch here, m8f's patch makes some FD weapons cause special death animations and BTSX seems to require older versions of BD to run. I'm using 6.3.2 with it). I also had no issue running it in the latest version of GZDoom.


I have only one suggestion: Being able to switch weapons during reload. I didn't have an issue with this before, but Hellboundguy's revolvers and the shotgun, despite otherwise being very fun to use, feel somewhat uncomfortable when you are defenseless and out of control during their reload time. I think the balancing of this would actually be fine and it's alright that you have to use them strategically, taking that short time of vulnerability into account. I just think it doesn't feel so good. That said, I have no idea how hard that actually is to implement or if it's worth the trouble.

Also, I have something to say about the Nanocore! I think it's fine :)

[edit]
On the topic of Hellboundguy's shotgun, I would also like to suggest manual pumping. I'm a fan of the other weapons' manual options, especially the katana sheathing. In the case of the shotgun it could allow for more control over when to shoot and when to "reload", and would include a "fix" to my problem with the reload time, as it would be in the player's control. Just an idea, it's cool either way!
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby ThrashfanBert1994 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:18 pm

speaking of hellbound, how about new player classes like 64 and alpha along 2016 eternal?
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Solaela » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:03 pm

ThrashfanBert1994 wrote:speaking of hellbound, how about new player classes like 64 and alpha along 2016 eternal?


Dunno what he could do for eternal that stuff like Embers of Armageddon/D4V don't do.

And I dunno if he's still working on this or not.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Yholl » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:14 am

Syrion wrote:I have only one suggestion: Being able to switch weapons during reload. I didn't have an issue with this before, but Hellboundguy's revolvers and the shotgun, despite otherwise being very fun to use, feel somewhat uncomfortable when you are defenseless and out of control during their reload time. I think the balancing of this would actually be fine and it's alright that you have to use them strategically, taking that short time of vulnerability into account. I just think it doesn't feel so good. That said, I have no idea how hard that actually is to implement or if it's worth the trouble.

On the topic of Hellboundguy's shotgun, I would also like to suggest manual pumping. I'm a fan of the other weapons' manual options, especially the katana sheathing. In the case of the shotgun it could allow for more control over when to shoot and when to "reload", and would include a "fix" to my problem with the reload time, as it would be in the player's control. Just an idea, it's cool either way!
The inability to do this is how they are balanced. Things like the length of the reload on the revolvers, or the triple pump on the Hellbound shotgun are entirely intentional and are there to make them not the most powerful and ridiculous weapons.
Use single or double shots with the shotgun more often, as triple shots will lock up the gun until it is fully pumped.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby VicBorAng » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:16 pm

I wrote this over time, and since i wrote about all the classes one at a time, it ended up a little big, so spoiled to save space:

Bonus Play trough, toughs, notes, and the like.
Spoiler:


Second, a weapon tier list.
Spoiler:


Third, I'm so glad FD Customizer is a thing that is real and exists.
Spoiler:


Finally, the end.
Spoiler:
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Syrion » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:23 pm

Yholl wrote:
Syrion wrote:The inability to do this is how they are balanced. Things like the length of the reload on the revolvers, or the triple pump on the Hellbound shotgun are entirely intentional and are there to make them not the most powerful and ridiculous weapons.

I fully agree with this :) What I ment was not making it a disadvantage that I "commited to reloading" the revolvers, maybe accidently. I can fire the 12 bullets and switch to another weapon right away just fine as it is right now. When I want to use them again, I still first have to reload them. But, when I hold the fire button down and don't keep track of how many bullets were fired, I start reloading the revolvers automatically, I'm locked in the reload animation and have no more choice to switch to another gun until it's finished, no matter if I want to keep on using them or not. That's why I suggested being able to abort the reload and switch to another weapon right away: The revolvers would still need to be reloaded before being usable again, just as it is now. It would even be a disadvantage, as you wasted some reload time. But, you would have more control over what you want to do. I imagine it would just feel better to use them and the balancing, if I'm not missing anything, would be unchanged.

Another idea would be an option to disable automatic reloading of the pistols, but seeing as that's probably almost entirely unhelpful for any other weapon set I suppose that's even less worth implementing.

Alternatively I'll just start counting the bullets, that should work :)


As for the shotgun, I understand that manual reload would change the balancing quite a bit. I'm actually very fond of your style of fleshing out these guns and balancing them without overcomplicating their usage and think the Hellbound-shotgun is a great example of that. An option would just be a variant akin to the manual reload of the TNT-shotgun.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Solaela » Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:37 am

So...Wasn't expecting 'double ammo' + alien vendetta weapons = pistol turns into a minigun.... But I love how silly it is. XD
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Joined: 10 Jan 2015

Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby cncz » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:26 am

This mod seems to have a fatal failure with god knows what (at least on arch linux nvidia drivers) that causes the gpu to completely freeze up needing you to unplug the pc, can't provide any logs unfortunately due to the severity of the crash
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Joined: 08 Sep 2020
Operating System: Other Linux 64-bit
OS Test Version: No (Using Stable Public Version)
Graphics Processor: nVidia (Modern GZDoom)

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