[3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Touchfuzzy » Wed May 27, 2020 11:33 pm

It's gotten to the point that I play with Final Doomer on most maps more than I play without Final Doomer. Even if I just throw it on random and stick with what it gives me, it's nice having all of these options, with each weapon and their set changing how you approach the same map or even group of enemies. It's great!

I had wondered something while playing tonight, though, after fidling around with the "Vanilla Balance Toggle" for stock Doom weapons. I'm sorry if this has already been answered in some form or fashion, and I did do a quick bit of skimming through the other pages using crtl+F, but what's the goal/target balance between the weaponsets? Not that it feels off or that I have a problem with it or anything; was just curious from a design point of view. I know it's been said earlier (much earlier) that the general gist is punching in numbers that feel good then tweaking later until they fit, but I always kinda wondered what the original or intended "baseline" for all weaponsets was from the start, assuming there was even one to begin with.

Like, roughly how much better is the Final Doomer Doom II weaponset over the vanilla Doom II weaponset? How much better are all the weaponsets over vanilla doom? I know all weaponsets are better than the others depending on a myriad of situations, but between levels while playing, I always slightly wondered if there's a method to the madness. Either way, it's all great, I love all of the stuff that's been done. Probably my most favorite gameplay mod for Doom! Thank you guys so much.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Tesculpture » Thu May 28, 2020 9:11 am

Apologies, but I've found what I assume is another bug; Hellbound's revolvers interact weirdly with difficulty settings that alter the ammo factor (ie ITYTD and Nightmare). Reloading them loads a full 12 bullets in one lot into the guns, instead of two lots of 6 (also, only one gun seems to spit out casing during said reload). Furthermore, every second reload you do, if it is done with an odd number of bullets remaining, will load two lots but the first lot will always set the ammo count to 11 instead of increasing it by six, while the second tops it off to 12.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby VicBorAng » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:00 pm

Ok, so i finally got around to finishing playing trough Hellbound with the Hellbound weapon set.
And i can say that my love for this mod is growing with each subsequent playtrough.

Like, now i have this growing desire to get into Doom modding just to create a "shooting range" testing map with custom sandbag/dummy enemies to get to the deep details of each weapon set. Like, that's how much i'm loving these weapons.

Hellboundguy then, right?
I really really liked this weaponset. I felt that all the weapons were satisfying to use. So much so that i think i was using all of them equally.
And not in the JCP wepons way where i used a (burst needle shot+prism cannon+continuous Ofuda caster) combo.
I think i was starting to learn the role of each weapon in the toolbox.

Well, until the last two maps, then i basically started only using the C4 and the Aeroslayer Minigun. With only a small use of the Brigand SSG to top things off.
Oh, and the Totenheim.
Oh boy the Totenheim. I'm not sure if it's the most damage dealer BFG, But i freaking love it. Most of the other BFGs i tented to save up for special moments, but i think i used the Totenheim far more liberally due to how much i liked it.

And the C4, i spent most of the mapset with the advanced settings, expecting to use it to set up traps for enemies teleporting in. But then i usually set too many of them before blowing it all up. Once i switched up for Simple in Map29 and started using it as a standard rocket launcher, i think i started to get a better feel for it.

I really liked the Zaiger Rifle, i think it is my favorite chaingun tier weapon so far.
The Borstal Shotgun is tied with the Neutron Pulser for favorite shotgun tier weapon.

The Aeroslayer Minigun, i think, i continued the trend i set with the Plasma Vulcan of saving up ammo for big moments. Witch i think is the intended use for for them. I found out they can stunlock Archviles and Cyber-Demons quite well, so it became my go to strategy to dealing with them. Since i know that the Cyberdemon is immune to splash damage.
I know they exist, but i can't pintpoint the exact differences with the Plasma Vulcan and the Aeroslayer Minigun aside from damage type. I think that the minigun has a smaller spread and faster projectiles. The Plasma Vulcan has 900 ammo to the Minigun 600. So i'm certain there is a difference in base damage per bullet, if not on DpS.

One thing that was said earlier and i want to echo, is how loud some of the weapons can be. the Ancient Aliens weapons are too loud, especially the Ancient AK, and it was one of the reasons i avoided using it.
The Hellbound pistols, i think aren't too bothersome, but the Brigand SSG and the Minigun are indeed loud. Especially with headphones.

The Brigand SSG. I liked it a lot. Especially since it can Gib low tier enemies. And the Pushback is a fun feature.
I think that from the damage indicator i was getting from DamNum it felt like a 3 burst shot of the Borsal Shotgun dealt mostly the same damage to the Brigand SSG, and the reload time felt similar enough.

One cool thing i noticed with some experimentation, was that the Borsal shotgun had a bigger variation in damage compared to the standard shotgun with the re-balancing on.
It could go lower and higher then the Shotgun. And that's a neat way to differentiate each shotgun, aside from the burst fire (witch, if luck was on my side, could take down a Revenant with a single 3-burst fire).

And now i'm off to Alien Vandetta, then Whitemare, and finally Plutonia/TnT/Doom2 to close the circle.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Yholl » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:29 am

Finder153 wrote:Another bug: the shotguns in the Whitemare weapon set ejects red shells instead of the orange ones when "Casing Sounds" is disabled.
darm

Sinael wrote:I really like the Whitemare guy more than the rest, as setting enemies on fire is highly entertaining, but by god does his pistol is too damn huge visually.
I'd really like a different/alternative sprite that is not blocking off my view so much.
ehhh, maybe. I'll think about it.

Touchfuzzy wrote:Like, roughly how much better is the Final Doomer Doom II weaponset over the vanilla Doom II weaponset?
Generally, they're a bit stronger due to having no shared ammo pools, and increased chaingun damage.
Weaponsets that are based on difficult mapsets tend to be stronger, like Ancient Aliens or Hellbound. The increase isn't huge, but it's there, either simply or subtly. For instance, the Plutonia SSG has extra pellets, with no tradeoff whatsoever.

Tesculpture wrote:Apologies, but I've found what I assume is another bug; Hellbound's revolvers interact weirdly with difficulty settings that alter the ammo factor (ie ITYTD and Nightmare).
god those guns will be the death of me

VicBorAng wrote:And the C4, i spent most of the mapset with the advanced settings, expecting to use it to set up traps for enemies teleporting in. But then i usually set too many of them before blowing it all up.
Here's a tip if you didn't know it already; You can pick up thrown C4 by pressing Use on it.

occultishgrublin wrote:My only real issue is that some of the sound effects seem excessively loud to me with headphones even if I turn GZDoom's master to 0.68 and sound as far as 0.27
VicBorAng wrote:One thing that was said earlier and i want to echo, is how loud some of the weapons can be. the Ancient Aliens weapons are too loud, especially the Ancient AK, and it was one of the reasons i avoided using it.
The Hellbound pistols, i think aren't too bothersome, but the Brigand SSG and the Minigun are indeed loud. Especially with headphones.
I use headphones myself and have no issues with any sounds in the mod. I mean, even the AK is just the machinegun from Half-Life. I'm inclined to think the two of you have something else that's causing this.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Captain J » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:12 am

Probably you could solve the volume problem so easily by adjusting the actual volume in the sound options.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Itschristian » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:58 pm

suggesting Sigil theme,hope this will added
Weapons (something demonic)

1.Blood Pistol
Fast,has big mags,but lesser damage. Life leech chance was 10%

2. Cursed Shotgun
Basically a point blank weapon. Can oneshot monsters with same health with a Demon

3. Deathgasm
Has the highest damage from all SSGs. Has the regular SSG accuracy. Alt fire will shoots a cloud of hellish shells that uses all of your shotgun ammo.

4.Soulstorm Rifle
Speed and damage will build up while firing. Maximum speed will be 3 times the original speed.

5.Soul Bomber
Has no splash damage,but will damage everything near a monster that was hit by Soul Bomber

6.Death Repeater
Shoots a stream of unholy plasmas that deals very high damage. Be careful of ammo consumption. Also the ammo is pretty rare.

7.Sigil Cannon
Its big,its red,and its hellish. This isn't Unmaker. This one shoots 3 unholy bfg projectiles and bfg rays at once.

8. Hellish Mace
Fast,but low damage. This one kills a Baron after 10 hits.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Cyanide » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:29 am

Itschristian wrote:suggesting Sigil theme

Why don't you just make that yourself?
Free resources exist, and you seem to have very specific ideas for all the weapons already, so you should be good to go.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby VicBorAng » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:45 pm

And so, i have finished my play-trough of Alien Vendetta² (AVguyy+Alien Vendetta).
Oh boy, now that was fast. Fastest of my play-trough i think. I managed to plow trough the first stages quick enough that momentum carried me trough the last ones before i could reach the point i usually get tired of a map set. All that time it took to complete Hellbound must have just gathered together.

All in all, It's another great weaponset. So Kuddos to everyone involved.

Ok so. I know that the weapon sets have been balanced only with themselves in mind. And not with the rest.
And now my suspicions that the more difficult mapsets tend to be stronger are confirmed i think i can put some extra thought into this.

I went in AV knowing it was supposed to be a hard map.(Plutonia on UV tier on HMP, and really hard on UV).
And i went right after Hellbound, witch had really powerful weapons.
So i expected something similar to that.

So here's my taking. The AV weaponset is similarly powerful to the HB weaponset, but it took the power on a different way.
More exactly, it's Burst DPS vs Sustained DPS [I think, i don't usually use those terms.]


HB is a weaponset focused on weapons with powerful attacks and low ammo. Even the chaingun tier weapon, The Zaiger Rifle, while powerful runs out of ammo quickly. (Ammo amount only comparable to the JCP Burst Needler. Witch i feel like lasts longer. If only due to how i used it as a combo starter.)
The Shotgun can do quite a lot of damage, in exchange for a longer reload time.
The Brigand SSG can Gib enemies with a single shot.
And the C4 can deal damage similar to the BTSX Pulse Cannon, but with splash damage. With the lowest ammo count of all current weapons.

The AV weaponset, on the other hand. Isn't as powerful per shot. But i think that it can deal comparable damage over time.
The Drum Shotgun can deal very constant and fast damage, but the bullet spread is more... spread out. It's good for crowds i bet, but if you are trying to nail enemies a bit too far in quick succession it might not be as effective.
The biggest example of my theory though is the Shattergun. I tested it out. Point blank, It deals mostly the same damage to a point blank Brigand SSG shot. Taking... 3 or 4 shots more or less each to kill a Mancubus. But one is straight up damage, while the other is spread out over time.

Now, we reach the part i'm not all sure about. The Tornado Battery. I'm not sure how to feel about it, exactly.
I tried to time it, and it seems the Zaiger Rifle can kill a mancubus faster then the Tornado Battery. And from what i experienced, large crowds of weaker enemies can be killed very quickly.
On the other hand. The Tornado Battery death by a thousand seems to be just as effective in a different way. Being able to stunlock many different enemies, from Mancubi to Revenants. It's aim is precise in an unusual way. Being able to consistently hit a crowd of enemies from a far, instad of a single enemy repeatedly. But even against one enemy It can hit them often enough due to the horizontal spread of the gun.
Speaking of that unusual horizontal spread, i think it makes it very good to deal with mobs of enemies because it can often hit 3 enemies at once in some cases.
It's a good chaingun overall.

Is it my favorite chaingun? I can't tell.

The Mini-Missile launcher is another thing in favor for this "theory" of what differentiates the weaponsets. It has way way more ammo then the C4. But has less damage per explosion, with a smaller splash damage area, i think.
way more ammo then the classic Rocket Launcher even. 3 times more ammo then the RL, but one third of the damage, if i'm not mistaken.
But it fires really fast, and puts the hurt on the enemies for sure.

And now, we come to the two workshorse weapons of this mod. The ones i didn't expect to main, but ended up maining.
The Phased-Tachyon Cannon, and The Vendetta Machine.

So here's my guess. The pure high damage output was placed on the shoulders of these two weapons.
The rest is quick damage, death by a thousand cuts. But these two are the ones who were left with the position of damage dealers.
The Phased-Tachyon Cannon... is a piercing railgun with a cool ass effect. Very good against the heavies and big guys. precise damage. I love it.
I do feel like that cool down time could have used a slightly more clarity, but that's just me. Not that i wasn't able to do it increasingly more often just with timing and sound alone (what i guessed was that the timing was tied to waiting the weapons firing sound to end).

The Vendetta Machine is very different from the rest of the BFGs, with the highest ammo capacity.
It is very good for hordes that are teleporting in. And large group of enemies vertically close.
Carefull, deliberate, and strategic use of the Vandetta Machine shots helped me survive a long deal of this mod.
Map 26 did make one of it's limitations clear. It's not as good at purely vertical shots if you can't put enough distance between the targets, and it takes time to clear horde out. If there are too many enemies attacking you and archviles are on the mix, You might not be able to prime it fast enough to deal with them all at once.


Oh yeah. I almost forgot to talk about the chainsaw replacement again didn't i?
Well, it's been interesting to see what each chainsaw replacement does.
The AA Statis Bow is very strategic, and made me look into an easy way to quickly swap between weapons.
The JCP Katana just keeps compounding into itself with more and more damage.
The BTSX Nanocore is quite powerful too if you can manage to stay out of damage. I should replay the mod with the timed boost instead of the health based one at some point, it will certainly change the way i look at it.
The Hammerite is a very good ammo saving method, and a very good Pinky disposal tool even without a berserk pack. And the footwork to make use of it is also fun in of itself.
And the Grav Staf is also another welcome tool. A very strategic weapon thanks to it's reach and speed debuff. Kills a pinky in four hits normally, and in one hit with the Berserk.


Ok. On to our next weaponset. Whitemare. This one seems to quite unusual with it's burning mechanics.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Tesculpture » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:47 pm

Yholl wrote:god those guns will be the death of me


The problem simply seems to be the ammo given during reloading is affected by the skill ammo factor. The other pistol weapons have a similar issue when set to use slot 4 ammo; on skill levels with an ammo factor of 2, they gain 2 bullets (4 in the case of JPCP's silenced pistol) for every 1 ammo used to reload them.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Vostyok » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:58 am

Tesculpture wrote:
Yholl wrote:god those guns will be the death of me


The problem simply seems to be the ammo given during reloading is affected by the skill ammo factor. The other pistol weapons have a similar issue when set to use slot 4 ammo; on skill levels with an ammo factor of 2, they gain 2 bullets (4 in the case of JPCP's silenced pistol) for every 1 ammo used to reload them.


This problem can be solved by giving all internal (generated during reloading) ammunition types the INVENTORY.IGNORESKILL flag. Just be careful you don't put it on a regular ammo pickup, and you're golden.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Yholl » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:34 am

Vostyok wrote:This problem can be solved by giving all internal (generated during reloading) ammunition types the INVENTORY.IGNORESKILL flag. Just be careful you don't put it on a regular ammo pickup, and you're golden.
Yeah, I know. I'm just lamenting the amount of crap that goes wrong with pistols, and how much I've had to mess with them to fix them.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby GoldenGuard95 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:17 am

Will Sniper Rifle come in future Weaponsets? I dont know, it could make Rocket Launcher replacement... A sniper rifle with High Explosive rounds or something.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby VicBorAng » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:45 am

All right, just finished with the WHITEMARE play trough. Those were some enjoyable maps.
A lot faster then my usual, but then again it only half of the maps a normal megawad has. Just as right too, since i usually get tired of continuously playing by map 17 or so.

The weapons of this set were quite a break in expectations.
They were unusual, but not overly so.

I expected the burn mechanic to be the primary form of damage, but the weapons themselves have decent enough damage by themselves.

The Thermocoat was a good compliment to the rest of the weapons, and it was a great incentive for me to try and ignite more enemies, and letting the fire do it's job, instead of killing them outright.
Spoiler:


The Blazeblade... certainly works as a melee weapon. And it launching fire upon killing a monster does make it quite interesting. But i didn't use it very much, i'm afraid.
I think i would have used it more if it could ignite enemies too.

The Flare Buster is quite the wonderful weapon :wub: . It's big, but not as big as it's projectiles. I think this is one of my most used pistol tier weapons on this mapset. And it's one of the few weapons i have managed to consistently reach blue fire tier on regular enemies with.
The whole time, i kept re-arranging this gun placement in my personal tier. And it's currently tied with the Silenced Pistol, and the Charge Pistol. Each with their own pros and cons.

The Drake Knight Shotgun is the third projectile based shotgun in this map set. It fires five or six fireballs that can deal quite the damage when point blank, but each projectile by itself isn't as powerful. If you hit all shots you an deal more damage then the Neuron Pulser. But the spread make it not an easy task.
It seems that each projectile shotgun is somewhat balanced compared with each other. The Neruon Pulser has a shorter range, but good damage. The Arc Blaster Isn't as strong but it's able to do quite a good number of trick shots. And the DKS has a longer range and higher damage, but it requires being able to nail said projectiles.

The Dragon King Shotgun is a good Super Shotgun. And i used it very often. It can one shot pinkies. And it's gravity influenced fireballs can be use for quite some trick shots, to hit enemies above you without them being able to shoot you.

The Gatling Fury i expected to like. And it did not break my expectations. It is decently accurate when fired in bursts. And smart use of the continuous fire is rewarded with a powerful damage boost. And it is one of the few hitscan weapons in this weaponset.

The Firegrasp... well i went in eager to get my hands on this monster of a chargeable weapon. And it was very fun. Fully charged it can deal some ridiculous damage, and while It's uncharged fire isn't as powerful as a regular rocket, but this weapon does have a lot of ammo. Now, while i can perfectly see this weapon strategic use. I'm not sure if it's the best weapon for me personally. Now, while i love chargeable weapons. I tended to miss a lot of the shots. At first i thought that the projectiles were slower then normal. But tests have proven that it moves as fast as a regular rocket. So it's only me being bad at judging the spatial movement of the projectile.
It did help me kill cyberdemons quite fast, and it did help me get out of sticky situations.
It's a fun weapon. Like the Machreaper, it would be even more fun if I knew how to use it well.

The Flamethrower is a short range weapon, that helped me burn down quite a lot of enemies. It's useful on quite a lot of scenarios, as long as said scenarios happen on the short range. It was fun burning down the first spider-mastermind, and after that i regularly used it. Works wonders for all kinds of enemies.

The Sol's Wrath... Well i think that me getting it only at the very end of the wad did make my expectations quite higher then normal. I think this one is a bit trickier to use then most BFGs. I know it's damage output is high, since it can kill Cyberdemons fast. But i'm not sure i learned how to use it, and even after deploying it i was left with a few surviving enemies.

All in all. A rather fun weapon set. That has managed to add in a few weapons to the list of weapons i'm considering making my "Custom Final Doomer" out of.


Now... For a regular playtrough of (maybe) Doom, TNT and Plutonia wads. And i might even try Plutonia on Ultra-Violence. Maybe.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Yholl » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:40 pm

VicBorAng wrote:All right, just finished with the WHITEMARE play trough. Those were some enjoyable maps.
Glad you're having fun. I've been quite enjoying reading your thoughts on the sets, thank you for writing them!
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