Lithium 1.6.1 (Jan. 24, 2019)

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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [1.6 Info - pg.22]

Postby Marrub » Tue May 29, 2018 1:20 am

AvzinElkein wrote:What is "EE"? I've never heard of it.

Eternity Engine.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [1.6 Info - pg.22]

Postby Machine-Reaper » Tue May 29, 2018 10:24 am

Marrub wrote:
AvzinElkein wrote:What is "EE"? I've never heard of it.

Eternity Engine.


Hahahaha.

A memeber of ZDoom Forums older then the Mod developer asking about an engine older then both of them....
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby killbotvii » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:35 pm

One potential problem with switching to EE, which I'm sure you've thought about, is that many people may be entirely unwilling to switch to a new engine. EE isn't quite as user-friendly, but more important, I don't believe it supports true 3D. I could be wrong in that last part, but I know that I wasn't able to enable it if such a feature does actually exist.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Machine-Reaper » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:05 am

I think EE has more features then even GZDoom (Better True 3D support possibly) and better mod/modification support, less buggy etc, but I'm only guessing this from hearing here and there.

I never ever used it cause there aren't many mods around of it.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Marrub » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:48 am

Sorry for the lack of updates, I accidentally fucked up my Linux install and have been too busy IRL to work on this for the past few months. I'll post progress as soon as I make any.

Machine-Reaper wrote:I think EE has more features then even GZDoom (Better True 3D support possibly) and better mod/modification support, less buggy etc, but I'm only guessing this from hearing here and there.

I never ever used it cause there aren't many mods around of it.

EE does not have a hardware renderer, true-3D software renderer, or even fully featured mod support. What it lacks it makes up for in spades by generally being developed far better than GZDoom.

killbotvii wrote:One potential problem with switching to EE, which I'm sure you've thought about, is that many people may be entirely unwilling to switch to a new engine. EE isn't quite as user-friendly, but more important, I don't believe it supports true 3D. I could be wrong in that last part, but I know that I wasn't able to enable it if such a feature does actually exist.

The mod's always been made for 8-bit software mode, so that's not a problem, and I don't agree on the user-friendliness front.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby killbotvii » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:12 am

I want to quickly mention that I'm not trying to attack you for your decision at all, I actually think it's really interesting. My user-friendliness point when I really think about it, is probably heavily biased. I may simply think it is that way because I use it far and array the most. Anyway, I wish you good luck on your work.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Marrub » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:14 pm

killbotvii wrote:I want to quickly mention that I'm not trying to attack you for your decision at all, I actually think it's really interesting. My user-friendliness point when I really think about it, is probably heavily biased. I may simply think it is that way because I use it far and array the most. Anyway, I wish you good luck on your work.

Yeah, I totally understand. I'm apparently the only person who's ever said to the EE devs that they like the options menu, hahahah.

Altazimuth is currently working on scripting capabilities for EE, which has me excited. I'll probably not need to do source modification besides actually contributing to the project (or potentially extending the scripting for my needs.)
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Marrub » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:21 am

To clear up some misconceptions coming from the canary:
  • The ACS VM is not for map scripting. There are numerous instructions within it that prove intent to make it able to do more than originally intended.
  • GDCC is a stable compiler. The only times it has ever had issues resulting in incorrect behaviour are when it had major rewrites, which were quickly resolved by rigorous testing.
  • ZScript is not a stable language. There may be some intent to make it stable, but it does not work and major breaking changes, bugs, and performance regressions frequently make their way into new "stable" releases and are never accounted for.
  • The current issues with this mod have nothing to do with ACS or GDCC. They are entirely the fault of ZScript. Version 1.6 is made for GZDoom 3.3.0 and it has bitten back so hard that I do not want to continue.
  • Graf Zahl does not seem to care about actually maintaining the port. Of all the excuses he's given to not fix bugs, I think the most toxic one has been that "ACS is for map scripting." This is not only a bad excuse to not fix one-line issues that were already trivial to spot but has spread this idea as a common misconception between those who I can only call fanatics within this community. This seems to happen just about every time he makes an excuse, no matter what it's for.
I don't mean to be rude or angry here, I just wish people would stop trying to find fault in something I make for fun and esoterica. I don't want to be bothered by seemingly impossible tasks and restrictions set up just to excuse bad programming. I'd rather like to be able to actually finish what I started.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Machine-Reaper » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:35 pm

Marrub wrote:To clear up some misconceptions coming from the canary:


I'm not a canary, I'm a parrot and I don't know one thing about coding.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Zenon » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:57 pm

looks more like a budgerigar
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Kinsie » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:48 am

Marrub wrote:I just wish people would stop trying to find fault in something I make for fun and esoterica.
Remember kids: You're not allowed to criticise something if it's free! ...unless it's made by somebody other than me.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Machine-Reaper » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:38 am

I like this mod, I do get crashes but still keep trying to play it.
its very very pleasing to grind your way from start and get very satisfying upgrades from evil marines specially with SUAD monsters and dark map packs.

that's all I have ever said about this mod as of now.

do want to see it go further but very satisfied with what it is already~

p.s

Zenon wrote:looks more like a budgerigar


is still a parrot. Quack!
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby _mental_ » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:56 am

Marrub wrote:This is not only a bad excuse to not fix one-line issues that were already trivial to spot

You are wrong, it was far from being trivial to spot. Number of changed lines has no relation to complexity of finding what to change.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:07 am

Marrub wrote:[*]Graf Zahl does not seem to care about actually maintaining the port. Of all the excuses he's given to not fix bugs, I think the most toxic one has been that "ACS is for map scripting." This is not only a bad excuse to not fix one-line issues that were already trivial to spot but has spread this idea as a common misconception between those who I can only call fanatics within this community. This seems to happen just about every time he makes an excuse, no matter what it's for.[/list]


Marrub wrote: What it lacks it makes up for in spades by generally being developed far better than GZDoom.



You are really funny. On the one hand you complain when I try to set things straight about one bad case of misdevelopment, while still using what that misdevelopment created in your mod, and then you praise another engine for "better development"? What is it?

Also, if ZScript broke for you, where's the bug report?
Speaking about bug reports, the last one you posted is still open because I never got the requested feedback to investigate the issue.
In other words: You seem to complain a lot but not provide any help to fix your issues.
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Re: Lithium 1.5.3 (Nov. 22 2017) [2.0 info - pg24]

Postby Rachael » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:19 am

Look, let's keep things civil here. I have gone on record saying that I full heartedly disagree with Marrub about some of his opinions, but they are just opinions and they are not fact and he is entitled to his own views - we're not going to be better people by trying to force him to think a certain way.

However, I will say this: Eternity is BADLY in need of use and exposure. It gets a lot of praise (not just from Marrub) about "doing the right thing" but very few people still use it. Is it because it only has a software renderer? Is it because development moves so slowly on it? Is it because it is a lot more conservative than GZDoom about what kind of features they decide to pursue? Is it because its primary author is busy all the time? Again, I am NOT harking on Eternity. I love that port. I do believe it can do things better, though. And I am sure the same could be said of GZDoom, a port which DOES take risks, it DOES jump into the fire, but in the end, I think, comes out stronger because of it.

With that said, there's always going to be a difference in development philosophy, sometimes even between authors and their audience. While it's easy to come to the conclusion that Marrub's dislike for GZDoom seems to come from a misunderstanding of how it works, there's obviously still some issues that cloud over even the obvious stuff, some negative sentiment that has been brewing for quite some time, and you don't have to look far to see that it's there.

If Marrub wants to go to Eternity, I say let him. He might give them the boost of exposure they desperately need. I hope he continues to host his mod on this forum with that move, in addition to reaching out where-ever he needs to go to get Eternity users to try it out as well.

And if he decides Eternity does not suit him and he'd rather use GZDoom in the end, it will still be here waiting for him.
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