D4D - v3 Alpha 7 - Suggestions? p.39

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Credits/Crates mode (please explain your reasoning when selecting)

Keep both
11
52%
Re(move/place) credits, keep crates
2
10%
Re(move/place) crates, keep credits
4
19%
Remove both, come up with a new idea
4
19%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: D4D - Now On GitHub!

Postby blackfish » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:18 pm

I've been comparing to the old Archvile. Sorry.

I do have enhanced AI on. It is a lot of fun, but I feel like it breaks certain maps that rely on infighting (See anything by Ribbiks, such as Swim with the Whales or Stardate 20x6). I noticed also that in some maps, such as this one, hell knights can jump into sectors and get stuck in them.

Edit: Sorry one more thing. Have you considered making a version that allows players to make D4D maps more flexible? I'm referring to things like non-randomized weapon/monster spawns, and perhaps other things like having the ability to switch on and off the upgrade shop in favor of picking up the upgrades themselves. Credit bonus pickups would also be neat.
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Re: D4D - Now On GitHub!

Postby Major Cooke » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:23 pm

The barons could jump into sectors in v1 and fuck things up from the getgo. Doesn't matter if you have the new AI on or not. If they leap, say goodbye to orderly. :P

To be honest I absolutely hate the whole hitscan business and I'm glad Doom 4 went a different direction from this crap.

EDIT: Yup. I declared that on D4T's thread.
Last edited by Major Cooke on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: D4D - Now On GitHub!

Postby Major Cooke » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:26 pm

Speaking of which, new update out. Brings four new upgrades and a brand spanking new "Powerups" subsection in the upgrade menu. Give it a whirl and let me know what you think. Also made it more compatible with more scripted maps like Lost Soulsphere Gold Edition because I love that mapset.
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby SiFi270 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:23 am

I feel like an imbecile for saying this, but I can't find the download link for version 3. The link to ModDB in the first post still lists version 2.0 as the latest, and while trying to accomplish anything with GitHub makes me feel even more like an imbecile, I feel like I'm barking up the wrong tree there anyway because the readme there says it's still version 2.0.4.
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby Major Cooke » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:37 am

Use the links under the Beta Zone on the front page at the top. It's in two packages.

I tend to shy away from using moddb in general.
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby Stuka » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:14 am

I have two .zip files, what i do with those?
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby Beed28 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:42 pm

I couldn't get it to run. All I get is:
Code: Select allExpand view
Script error, "D4D-3.0a.pk3:zd4d/powerups.txt" line 32:
Unexpected ':'
Expecting ';' or ','

Execution could not continue.

1 errors while parsing D4D-3.0a.pk3:zd4d/rune/playersummoner.txt


I'm using GZDoom g2.3.2 64-bit. There's literally no guides or info on how to run the new alpha or even put the files together properly. What am I doing wrong? :(
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby TheCrimsonFucker » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:35 pm

Major Cooke wrote:Use the links under the Beta Zone on the front page at the top. It's in two packages.

I tend to shy away from using moddb in general.


Please give a link. I'm too blind or stupid to find a link to the version 3.
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Re: D4D - Now On GitHub!

Postby blackfish » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:40 pm

blackfish wrote:
Edit: Sorry one more thing. Have you considered making a version that allows players to make D4D maps more flexible? I'm referring to things like non-randomized weapon/monster spawns, and perhaps other things like having the ability to switch on and off the upgrade shop in favor of picking up the upgrades themselves. Credit bonus pickups would also be neat.


This has been in my mind for the past few hours so I figured I'd share it. I was thinking of a version of D4D, or perhaps an extension, that would allow more flexibility to mappers. Stuff including

-The ability to place specific monsters and/or weapons without randomization.
-The ability to set arguments on monsters and/or weapons that are spawned. Example, the laser imp can be more aggressive, or it can even shoot something else such as a Vortex Rifle. The mapper would also choose what item the laser imp drops, or none at all. In terms of weapons, the weapon pickups can have arguments regarding which upgrade it could be bundled with. Perhaps other since such as more health or bonus credits.
-Credit bonuses
-Gore Nests
-The ability to have Upgrades as items instead of using the shop.
-The ability to have the shop menu inaccessible via the hotkey. The mapper can place one of those floaty robot guys as a shop, or have no shop at all to support above idea.
-Actors that would allow monsters with jumping abilities to jump to specific locations. I thought it was neat that the mancubus in Doom '16 can jump up a canyon during the hell level. Why not in a D4D map?

I'm sure the list goes on, and it's just an idea that I may toy with myself, but I think this could make the mod even more popular and unique.
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby Fallingferret » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:44 pm

Beed28 wrote:I couldn't get it to run. All I get is:
Code: Select allExpand view
Script error, "D4D-3.0a.pk3:zd4d/powerups.txt" line 32:
Unexpected ':'
Expecting ';' or ','

Execution could not continue.

1 errors while parsing D4D-3.0a.pk3:zd4d/rune/playersummoner.txt


I'm using GZDoom g2.3.2 64-bit. There's literally no guides or info on how to run the new alpha or even put the files together properly. What am I doing wrong? :(
Stuka wrote:I have two .zip files, what i do with those?


I was able to get it to boot fine up by downloading both and dumping the resources into the main d4d folder, and then packing them into one .pk3. Make sure you have the latest devbuild, though.
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby Beed28 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:23 pm

Oh wow, I did need to download a devbuild. I just assumed I needed the latest GZDoom release. :|
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17)

Postby Major Cooke » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:58 pm

Stuka wrote:I have two .zip files, what i do with those?

Now I feel like an idiot for assuming people knew how to use ZDL. :oops: My mistake.

My favorite way is to use ZDL, as stated. Read up on it and download from here. Get the 3.2.2.2 version. It's pretty easy to set up.

Or you can drag and drop your mods, but I hate doing that personally. Still, if you like this method over the other, select the resources package and control-select the D4D.pk3 you downloaded, then drag it over gzdoom.

Again, load the resources first, data package second.

Oh and make sure you have a DRDteam build.

smeghead wrote:Please give a link. I'm too blind or stupid to find a link to the version 3.


First page, command/control F (or whatever your browser uses for searching words) type in Doom4DoomResources.

blackfish wrote:This has been in my mind for the past few hours so I figured I'd share it. I was thinking of a version of D4D, or perhaps an extension, that would allow more flexibility to mappers. Stuff including

Responses in red.
blackfish wrote:-The ability to place specific monsters and/or weapons without randomization.
MapSpots?
-The ability to set arguments on monsters and/or weapons that are spawned. Example, the laser imp can be more aggressive, or it can even shoot something else such as a Vortex Rifle. The mapper would also choose what item the laser imp drops, or none at all. In terms of weapons, the weapon pickups can have arguments regarding which upgrade it could be bundled with. Perhaps other since such as more health or bonus credits.
Not doable yet.
-Credit bonuses
Quad money powerup. Its in crates.
-Gore Nests
D4DHF addon. See first page.
-The ability to have Upgrades as items instead of using the shop.
As I mentioned yesterday, I will be looking into this.
-The ability to have the shop menu inaccessible via the hotkey. The mapper can place one of those floaty robot guys as a shop, or have no shop at all to support above idea.
It'd have to be map specific. And for that to happen, first, we need maps. Second, we need ZScript to expand further.
-Actors that would allow monsters with jumping abilities to jump to specific locations. I thought it was neat that the mancubus in Doom '16 can jump up a canyon during the hell level. Why not in a D4D map?
WFDM. That is, wait for D4D maps. Then we'll see. As for non-specific maps, the problem is they'll get stuck. Evident by how badly the barons of holy shitmas behave.

I'm sure the list goes on, and it's just an idea that I may toy with myself, but I think this could make the mod even more popular and unique.
But those are quite map specific. With one or two exceptions those will need to be addons for the most part.


Beed28 wrote:Oh wow, I did need to download a devbuild. I just assumed I needed the latest GZDoom release. :|

Yeeaaah, you got me there. Also my mistake. Well, updated the first post with a link there.
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17) [DRDBuilds]

Postby DBThanatos » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:48 pm

Major Cooke wrote:Can you give me a rundown on how you rebalanced them? A list of general details about x/y/z. I too have been thinking about changing up credit costs in D4D as I find myself sometimes buying some, or forgetting to buy some, then buying a whole bunch at once and never using some of them as a result.

WHAT!?

Can you also give me an idea of how many 1 in # monsters will drop one? Sounds like it's 1/1000.

Also, I think I will implement an alternative mode where it provides drops like this in D4D -- but it won't be on the fly switching. In order to go back, one must restart the game so as to not cheese through it. :P

Thanks for the inspiration!


Posting on D4D thread since that's the topic.

There's no list of changes. There were too many and they all contribute to each other.

What i can say is that when i left D4D, weapons were going too much into the OP territory thanks to upgrades that were too good. In a phrase that michaelis coined and i find as true as it gets

"when im having too much fun with one single weapon, it's a very good sign is OP"

And that's the case with almost every weapon in D4D. Upgrade them and they all become OP, especially the ones with upgrades rather than mods. Weapons are supposed to have a role, but when you make each weapon be wildly strong, they all turn OP and IMO that's ridiculously boring.

This comes from a "what gameplay you want from this" mindset, from there, start balancing it that way.

I hate mindless slaughtermaps. I like balanced mapsets where you don't face 100 monster at once. So i balanced the mod with that in mind. How to balance it, then? By playing it. By playing the type of mapset you want to play this with, and find why it is too hard/too easy. Whether that's because Chaingunners are dealing much more damage than in vanilla, or because certain monster can rarely hit you now when in vanilla it was a sniper.

While it's always attractive to create this super OP arsenal, and it fun for a little while, in the end to me at least, it gets boring AF because there's no challenge. And in d4d the pay-wall was too low. When you think "this cost 25k to fully upgrade" it sounds like a lot, but in reality it isn't. The answer is not to raise costs even further. It about making it less op

Thats what i did on my side, and it plays great for the things i want to play this with.

But again, it comes down to: what do you want this to be played with? How to you want this to played? As a "im an op mofo" or "this is actually challenging because my weapons are not one-shot killing everything"

It's always a sad moment when you have to nerf a weapon you love, but that's how balance works. Either that or make monster have more health, which in the end, results in the same thing:it takes longer to kill a monster.

Regarding very specifics of d4d balance (imo), bfg is too op. Carrion cannon is too op. Lg upgraded is op. Static rifle upgraded is op. Turret is op. Siege is op. Ddtt is op. rl is very op too

Again, upgrade pricing isn't the issue, it's simply that they are too good and need to be rethought from the ground up.

I know you enjoy slaughtermaps, and that's probably why you haven't noticed how op weapons are. Sure, they might work great to kill a huge mob of monsters, but when your playing a non slaughter mapset, the weapon is out of place.

That's why i mad emphasis on "how do you want this to be played". Making it good for slaughtermaps is a valid way of balancing it, just keep in mind that's gonna be a bad thing in smaller mapsets.

If you want to balance it more on the middle, think of vanilla doom, where no weapon is truly op, except perhaps the bfg. But other than that, they all had tricks and no weapon was too good.

In my side, i made weapons weaker all around, and it plays better imo
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17) [DRDBuilds]

Postby Major Cooke » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:00 pm

Responses in red.
DBThanatos wrote:There's no list of changes. There were too many and they all contribute to each other.
Figured as much.

What i can say is that when i left D4D, weapons were going too much into the OP territory thanks to upgrades that were too good. In a phrase that michaelis coined and i find as true as it gets:
"when im having too much fun with one single weapon, it's a very good sign is OP"

The weird part about this is, and maybe because I'm just not that great of a player, but I found each one has their weaknesses. I could ramble off a list of things I particularly don't like with each weapon.

For example:
  • Static Rifle - As much as I love to TRY and use it, most of the time I cannot simply because corridors become too tight or the new monster AI fucks me over. They don't run in cardinal 45 degree angles if you play with that (which I know you haven't yet).
  • Gauss cannon - Way too slow for me to reliably use it. If I do use it, it's just for the siege cannon in a last bid attempt to escape something bad or as the spark to start another battle, but then I just turn the hell away from it.
  • Vortex rifle - I feel is okay.
  • Pistol - I feel is okay.
  • Super Shotgun's DDTT I plan on gathering opinions about. Again. Because I'm pretty certain even Michaelis thought it was perfect where it was, lest time changed his mind. If anything, the ammo capacity will be most likely hit the hardest. I feel it's just strong enough where it can pull some good damage off before needing to switch.
  • Carrion Cannon - I'm thinking about ditching the ammo upgrades to nerf it. Ironically, I wound up designing this weapon around small but hard maps where snipers come into play.
  • Chainsaw - I'm tempted to dropkick the altfire because this thing I rely upon WAAAAY too much. Every chance I have (and I usually have a lot) I wind up performing executions over and over. If anything, I'll add an option to disable the melee risk/reward behavior and have it so nothing grants a bonus.
  • BFG - I will not touch the primary fire. I feel it's just enough to do the job. However, I do think I could definitely be more creative with the secondary and come up with something else. Might dump the ammo upgrade on this one too, not sure.
  • Rocket Launcher - If you can give me specifics on this one in particular, I'll give that a try.

You know, with the addition of the Megasphere upgrades, I can see this indeed becoming something of a problem. It does give leeway to having the weapons pulled back a bit...


And that's the case with almost every weapon in D4D. Upgrade them and they all become OP, especially the ones with upgrades rather than mods. Weapons are supposed to have a role, but when you make each weapon be wildly strong, they all turn OP and IMO that's ridiculously boring.

This comes from a "what gameplay you want from this" mindset, from there, start balancing it that way.

I hate mindless slaughtermaps. I like balanced mapsets where you don't face 100 monster at once. So i balanced the mod with that in mind. How to balance it, then? By playing it. By playing the type of mapset you want to play this with, and find why it is too hard/too easy. Whether that's because Chaingunners are dealing much more damage than in vanilla, or because certain monster can rarely hit you now when in vanilla it was a sniper.

While it's always attractive to create this super OP arsenal, and it fun for a little while, in the end to me at least, it gets boring AF because there's no challenge. And in d4d the pay-wall was too low. When you think "this cost 25k to fully upgrade" it sounds like a lot, but in reality it isn't. The answer is not to raise costs even further. It about making it less op

I will start off doing slight changes and asking the players how it feels, most likely.

Thats what i did on my side, and it plays great for the things i want to play this with.

But again, it comes down to: what do you want this to be played with? How to you want this to played? As a "im an op mofo" or "this is actually challenging because my weapons are not one-shot killing everything"

It's always a sad moment when you have to nerf a weapon you love, but that's how balance works. Either that or make monster have more health, which in the end, results in the same thing:it takes longer to kill a monster.

Regarding very specifics of d4d balance (imo), bfg is too op. Carrion cannon is too op. Lg upgraded is op. Static rifle upgraded is op. Turret is op. Siege is op. Ddtt is op. rl is very op too

I will admit I have the most gripes about the static rifle. As fun as it is to move and run around using it, I usually wind up being unable to hit anything properly either because I feel like I'm being a snail, I'm trying to get out of the way of enemy firepower, or I usually get caught in a corner and am forced to change weapons.

I don't know what I want to do with this weapon, honestly. I want to redesign it into something unique as well, but for right now I'll put up a poll for votes.


Again, upgrade pricing isn't the issue, it's simply that they are too good and need to be rethought from the ground up.

After taking some time to think about it, I think the whole price system we set up is just too problematic, which is why I was thinking of going the way you went and implementing a mode where you find your upgrades instead of buying them. The drop rates would most likely scale upon monster count with a certain minimal threshold at the very least one has to kill in order invoke a chance for them to drop.

I know you enjoy slaughtermaps, and that's probably why you haven't noticed how op weapons are. Sure, they might work great to kill a huge mob of monsters, but when your playing a non slaughter mapset, the weapon is out of place.

If I hadn't, I wouldn't have asked you from the first place. :P So here I am, asking you now, and I for one am glad you shared all this.

I swear, it's like I need to insert another lever. Mapset type: Small, Medium, Large, Slaughter, NUTS. :P


That's why i mad emphasis on "how do you want this to be played". Making it good for slaughtermaps is a valid way of balancing it, just keep in mind that's gonna be a bad thing in smaller mapsets.

If you want to balance it more on the middle, think of vanilla doom, where no weapon is truly op, except perhaps the bfg. But other than that, they all had tricks and no weapon was too good.

In my side, i made weapons weaker all around, and it plays better imo
Ironically I haven't touched the weapon balance at all since you did things with it before 2.0.3. But I'll consider it.











Well, you all heard him. What do you think? Made a poll about the static rifle. And what I mean by "Make something new!" I mean "Completely dump the behavior and do something new like the carrion cannon".
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Re: D4D - v3 Alpha 1 (1/15/17) [DRDBuilds]

Postby DBThanatos » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:10 pm

Voted: make something new. I'd love to see what you can cook (pun kinda intended) with all these new fancy gzdoom features :D

And about the last bit in red, yep, i acknowledge that a lot of the balance issues were also my fault. At some point i just felt like i didnt know where to put stuff and i just went with "well, this should work". Shame on me :P

Edit: also, if you keep it the same, make static rifle use ammo and allow it to fire even if there's no charge, that makes it more useful in general
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