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Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (Testing Help Wanted! p112)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:57 am
by Sallyspartan
So since there is now going to be a map maker function, do you plan on adding entities that didn't / wouldn't mesh well with the original maps? Such as the engineer zombies, gore nests, or Maledict? Maybe even adding the D3 sentry bot.

I know Cherno released a sentry bot sprite sheet, and Craneo released a sheet for the maledict.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (Testing Help Wanted! p112)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:51 pm
by Kinsie
Sallyspartan wrote:So since there is now going to be a map maker function, do you plan on adding entities that didn't / wouldn't mesh well with the original maps? Such as the engineer zombies, gore nests, or Maledict? Maybe even adding the D3 sentry bot.

I know Cherno released a sentry bot sprite sheet, and Craneo released a sheet for the maledict.
It's something I'd like to do to some extent, but for the most part I'm going to be saving that for the post-Eternal update.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (Testing Help Wanted! p112)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:06 pm
by whatup876
I've been spoiling myself with a lot of gameplay footage and even the leaked concept art book and it appears that some enemies in Eternal share some similar attacks.
Even bosses so far seem to carry something that can be traced to another entity in the game, while 2016's bosses had more "exclusive" attacks.

Maybe i'm missing something or misunderstanding how the enemies work (and should wait for release) but regardless, this means there could be less to take from in terms of enemy abilities. (can be both good and bad in some ways but oh well)

Also, what about if a mapset made with the mod in mind, can change how an enemy behaves?
Like giving the Cyberdemon his rail gun attack from 2016 or replacing Spiborg's charged plasma ball with a dual plasma spread similar to his 64 inclusion?
Or even just tweaks and rebalance of enemies and guns like speed or damage.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (Testing Help Wanted! p112)

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 am
by Kinsie
whatup876 wrote:Also, what about if a mapset made with the mod in mind, can change how an enemy behaves?
Like giving the Cyberdemon his rail gun attack from 2016 or replacing Spiborg's charged plasma ball with a dual plasma spread similar to his 64 inclusion?
Or even just tweaks and rebalance of enemies and guns like speed or damage.
Not especially likely. However, since you can place individual actors without having to worry about the random spawn stuff, mappers can craft encounters around specific monsters and weapons, playing to their specific strengths and weaknesses.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (Testing Help Wanted! p112)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:04 pm
by whatup876
I assumed that the reason why some enemy attacks aren't in the mod is because of the chance of them being possibly game-breaking or super annoying in most maps, like the Cybermancubus' acid projectiles being replaced with slime bombs.
But i think certain "locked" attacks only being available for dedicated maps can be a dumb concept, maybe.

I wonder how actual gameplay related elements for maps can go, considering Doom 3 and 2016 had their share of new elements for map/level design like new puzzle/hazard/traversal/exploration mechanics/features. (and Eternal will probably expand on it even more to increase level design potential)
There could be "too many" possibilities.

Something i thought of is mappers having "exclusive" lore pick ups for the codex, so there'd be level related lore.
Like, "this UAC base was founded X years ago" or something. (probably not a good idea too)

edit: actually, i can see some of this being taken care of, if the mapper makes up some addon/minimod/patch thing to be added alongside the main mod and the map.
Maybe.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (Testing Help Wanted! p112)

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:56 am
by Kinsie
I need more testing help with the developer build! See, I've just gutted and overhauled the inventory system. Instead of using a shared "inventory ammo" pool, each inventory item now has unlimited uses but with individual cooldown timers ala Doom 2016. The cooldown is typically two seconds, but some items have longer timers, either to prevent activating while they're already active or to prevent spam and abuse (Not Siphon Grenading any names here...)

This is a fairly sizable change and I'd like to know whether or not it has a positive or negative effect on gameplay. I'd also like some suggestions on how to handle inventory items you've already picked up, but I have ideas for that so that's secondary. Lemme know what you think and whether or not it sucks!

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:20 am
by Kinsie
Also, before I flop into bed, some sudden new features that I'm very proud of...

Image
Image

Boondorl discovered some really useful stuff lately (specifically, the "bDEHACKED" state flag, and also I guess that state flags are a thing) and as a result, the Optional Content toggle has undergone some radical changes.

For one, a manual toggle is no longer needed! MetaDoom's actors will now cheerfully give up their seat for DEHACKED-modified actors in any loaded mapsets automatically, letting them spawn instead. For another, all monsters are technically "Optional" now - it's not just the WolfSS or Keen that can get substituted with DEHACKED actors.

So, what does this mean to you? Well, it means MetaDoom will now work way better with DEHACKED-enhanced, Boom-compatible mapsets like Ancient Aliens, Eviternity, Going Down, Sunlust and countless other Deadset Bangers. I mean, you should absolutely play them vanilla first and get the intended experience, but once you're on your second playthrough you can haul in the MetaDoom arsenal and beastiary and mix things up a bit without horrible bugs resulting from the oil-and-water like combination of DEHACKED and DECORATE/ZScript!

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:48 pm
by Gez
Kinsie wrote:Boondorl discovered some really useful stuff lately (specifically, the "bDEHACKED" state flag, and also I guess that state flags are a thing)

State flags technically a thing since ZDoom changed how a state being fullbright was handled internally. (In vanilla, it's by adding 32768 to the frame number...) Then it was extended to fast states and then later to slow states. I missed the dehacked flag but it's a good idea, and it's pretty neat this allows to make smart replacement decisions.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:57 pm
by whatup876
I haven't updated the build i got yet, but before i touch anything i feel like asking this:
Does the Dehacked/enemy thing affects enemies in the mapsets that just have different sprites/sounds or does it affect actual enemy replacements that have different gameplay?
Like, Eviternity turns the Baron of Hell into a CyberBaron with different gameplay but Ancient Aliens has different looks for Mancubi and Arachnos but keeps their vanilla gameplay.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:00 pm
by Kinsie
whatup876 wrote:I haven't updated the build i got yet, but before i touch anything i feel like asking this:
Does the Dehacked/enemy thing affects enemies in the mapsets that just have different sprites/sounds or does it affect actual enemy replacements that have different gameplay?
Like, Eviternity turns the Baron of Hell into a CyberBaron with different gameplay but Ancient Aliens has different looks for Mancubi and Arachnos but keeps their vanilla gameplay.
It only effects monsters that have actually had their states altered in the DEHACKED script.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:53 am
by whatup876
Just to make yet another question: do the map only boxes only support one item at a time?
Or is it possible to make a box that can reveal dozens of backpacks and megaspheres or literal suprise Renevant and Archvile hordes?

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:08 pm
by TheOldKingCole
If you still need help testing I would be glad to help.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:32 pm
by whatup876
I tried the build now.
May not done enough/proper testing but:

* I spawned fire from the console (the map only one, of course) and it can damage enemies, whether or not it's intentional.

When i came to the Dehacked enemy thing, i summoned enemies from the console and they spawn differently to how they spawn from a normal playthrough, meaning these "issues" i noticed may not be relevant compared to actually playing the mod in a mapset:

* On Ancient Aliens, the teleporting aliens and floating skull drones can still show SS/Keen sprites and Arachno/Mancs can show their vanilla sprites. (this is of course through console summoning and not on an actual playthrough)
* And on 50 Monsters (A wad that replaces the chaingunner with a Spectre counterpart and then the SS with the actual chaingunner), the wad had a thing where the Baron was replaced by the Spider Mastermind, who then was replaced by a cyber Baron and then the "Baron" becomes the Baron of the mod. (if this sounds complicated, it's just how 50 Monsters does things)

However, it appears that the Harbinger of Doom fully replaces the Cyberdemon in 50 Monsters, at least through some IDCLEV checking. (could be because 50 Monsters is using the Wolfenstein SS Guards, who are supposed to be regular chaingunners while the actual chaingunners are invisible chaingunners)
It's possible this isn't a bug and it's just the mod following its rules, even in a way that seems odd just because of the maps alone.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:31 pm
by Kinsie
whatup876 wrote:* On Ancient Aliens, the teleporting aliens and floating skull drones can still show SS/Keen sprites and Arachno/Mancs can show their vanilla sprites. (this is of course through console summoning and not on an actual playthrough)
Remember that load priority and the resulting sprite conflicts are still a thing. I did some checking in my test map with the freeze cheat, and the new Ancient Aliens monsters seem to look fine when loaded after MetaDoom.

whatup876 wrote:* And on 50 Monsters (A wad that replaces the chaingunner with a Spectre counterpart and then the SS with the actual chaingunner), the wad had a thing where the Baron was replaced by the Spider Mastermind, who then was replaced by a cyber Baron and then the "Baron" becomes the Baron of the mod. (if this sounds complicated, it's just how 50 Monsters does things)

However, it appears that the Harbinger of Doom fully replaces the Cyberdemon in 50 Monsters, at least through some IDCLEV checking. (could be because 50 Monsters is using the Wolfenstein SS Guards, who are supposed to be regular chaingunners while the actual chaingunners are invisible chaingunners)
It's possible this isn't a bug and it's just the mod following its rules, even in a way that seems odd just because of the maps alone.
Fixed, the Harbinger check was also checking for the vanilla actor. I've changed that so that it only checks for the MetaDoom-style variants.

Re: MetaDoom v5.666 "Klave EX" (More Testing Help Needed! p1

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:03 pm
by whatup876
I noticed the github version has some prototypes for Kronos.
I remember the MP map Boneyard from 2016 having a giant skeleton that looked like Kronos:
https://i.redd.it/osr3e30v6y631.png

Spoiler:


Maybe that could help for sprite potential... or not.

And if you're still looking for ideas for some tweaks or updates for possibly objective quality improvements, there's always this:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=53010&start=1650#p1133223
At least i think it can help.