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Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:00 am
by whatup876
SiFi270 wrote:I saw on your Tumblr that you weren't sure how to implement Quad Damage into this, and it occurred to me that if RoE's hunters were in this then maybe the Berserk Hunter could drop it in the form of Doom RPG's Berserker Sphere. I guess it'd depend on what you want to do with the Artifact and, as always, what sprites are available.

Speaking of Doom RPG, i wonder if the UAC credits could work as score pick ups like the treasures, since video game currency and score related stuff go hand in hand a lot of times

Atendega wrote:
whatup876 wrote:I kinda thought of how the arachno tron from D64 could be added and have his own name but i'm not sure if it could work: Doom 3 had like 2 spider enemies being the trite and the tick.

I was thinking that one would actually be in the mod (even if it means coming from the Vagary) while the other would have to be sacrificed so his name can be used for the 64 arachno tron.
The trite and the tick are vastly different from the arachnotron in behavior and appearance, and I don't think either name would fit at all. As far as their inclusion in the mod, the trite and tick are essentially identical to each other in behavior. If you have sprites for both, they could be implemented as one enemy that randomly chooses either the trite or tick skin when spawned.

I guess Arachno from 64 would either be Mark Prototype whatever that name was or even something made up, like, would "Cyber Arachno Tron" be acceptable?

Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:39 am
by Kinsie
So, I'm going to kick out an update for MetaDoom in a couple of days. This makes a few sizeable changes under the hood, but most of it (barring some nice cosmetic tweaks and one or two balance changes) should be invisible to players outside of maybe running a little better. Now I have to start thinking seriously about what the future holds, both for MetaDoom and for my Doom modding in general.

Nevander's about to kick out his Doom 64 conversion, so odds are I'll take a little time off from MetaDoom to "vanilla-fy" it and make it gameplay mod-compliant, like I did with PSX Doom TC a while back. After that, though, there are a few things I want to tackle with MetaDoom in the future:

THE BFG: On the surface, if you only play in single-player, the BFG is fine. That's a pretty big if, however - while GZDoom's netcode situation could be politely described as "butt", it very likely won't stay that way forever. And in multiplayer, the BFG is a mess - the beams don't shoot out at hostile players, and the points rewarded by the beam attacks killing monsters are only rewarded to player one. A lot of the code for this attack was "borrowed" from Xaser's Argent mod before it underwent its ZScript-ification, so if I want to get to the root of the problem, I'll have to rewrite - and rethink - large swathes of it.

Also, the altfire is kind of crap, too, but that's all on me. I can handle that.

THE SPIDER DEMON: The Spider Demon is a difficult monster to work with and design for. I have a design written up for new moves and abilities intended to make it more appropriate as a final boss, and a big pile of sounds taken from Doom 4 and ready for additional manipulation... but this leaves a big, art-shaped hole in my plans. The Spider Demon doesn't have a lot of good alternate sprite sets out there, partly due to it not appearing in as many games as the other bosses, but mostly because of it being so fucking enormous, and that size makes it difficult to hit up artists to help me with a new sprite set. In addition, the new moves I have planned will require new frames, increasing the load.

There are a number of ways to go ahead with this, and few of them are ideal. Currently I'm leaning towards cutting down my plans and working with what I have, focusing on delivering the core of the idea using some loose-n-crappy modifications of the default Doom sprites... it'd be a bit disappointing, but I can extend and improve it further later.

Alternatively, I could poorly resize and recolour the Doom 64 Arachnotron and glue a skull to its face... ehhh, actually, nevermind.

TRITES: Trites are an interesting challenge. They're iconic to the Doom 3 experience, but they don't really fit well into Doom 2's bestiary anywhere, and their Headcrab-esque gameplay design is a trope that I've personally never been huge on. I'd like to redesign their gameplay to use the ceiling-walking trick from Strife's spider-bot, which will be a lot easier now that ZScript is a thing! As to what they'd replace, I'm learning towards making them weak and having a Spectre spawn generate 3-4, which will have its own problems with spawning inside walls etc. that will need to be dealt with.

I might also make them togglable, just for the arachnophobia peeps out there. I mean, why not, right?

MORE MONSTER VARIANTS: Clearly, my job here is not finished. I'd like to address a couple that have been on my mind recently...

  • Arch-Vile: Obviously, the key "get" here is the Doom 4 Summoner. I have a gameplay design hashed out for this guy, involving the Imp Lord's teleportation trick and summoning hordes of weak melee Zombies, but I've yet to piece together sprites for it. I have a very clear idea in my head of what I want to do, I just haven't gotten around to properly executing it yet.
  • Mancubus: There are two key variants I want to do here - the Doom 64 Manc (which I will probably name the Druj after one of the Doom 2 RPG variants) and the Doom 4 Cyber-Manc. These two monsters have the polar opposite problems - the Druj has sprites but no gameplay design, and the Cyber has gameplay design but no sprites. I'll have to talk to people and see what I can figure out.

PLAYER GENDER: This is something a friend of mine has requested, and with the presence of Crash in Q3A and Major Morgan from Doom 2 RPG, it's totally canon. I have some ideas on how to do this, at least as far as player sounds and HUD face (which may or may not take some inventory item hackery depending on what Graf's ZScript status bars can do). Changing anything else would probably require Gross Hacks™, or at least, way more art editing than I'm prepared to do.

If I do this though, I'd at least like to also accommodate the "other" gender option in player info, just for consistency's sake. Quake 2 (and parts of the ZDoom source code) accommodate this with a bulky-ass cyborg option - a HUD face for this mode would be tricky, but sound effects will be cake. As to what resources to use, I'll probably try and get permission to use Xaser's female hud face from Psychic (sans shades, of course), since it's in the same visual style as the standard Doomguy face and would require minimal massaging to look right. For the cyborg HUD face... I dunno, Hayden's head from Doom 4, maybe?

THE FUTURE: At least on the surface, at a noise-being-made level, MetaDoom is probably one of the less successful of my Big Mods, as you could probably tell by my complete failure to hide how disgruntled I am about it. I think, ultimately, it's due to the mod being comparatively straight-faced and adhering to the standard Doom gameplay in comparison to Reelism's arcade crazytown. Releasing in the wake of the D4D juggernaut probably didn't help much, either.

This isn't to say I'm disappointed with the mod - far from it, I'm super-proud of what I've accomplished - but as a creature that thrives off feedback, it's kind of difficult to shake the feeling of shouting into the void. And with that feeling comes thoughts of veering off and working on a different mod concept I've been massaging for a while. Something akin to a modern take on Cory Whittle's community-defining work blended with the casual insanity of the BUILD engine's games. However, while an attitude and feel is clearly present, the entire rest of the mod concept is still very nebulous, and ultimately all I have to show for it right now is a catchy name and an elevator pitch that changes every other week.

GZDoom has changed dramatically since MetaDoom was first announced last July, and it's continuing to evolve and expand and grow hair in gross places. Ultimately, I'm going to keep The Next Thing on hold as the next generation engine feature set formulates, and continue to work on MetaDoom, using it as something of an R&D lab for new features of possible relevance. We're entering a strange new world, and I want to make sure I'm well-equipped for it. Or at least, so I know just how fucked I am without actual programmers backing my illiterate ass up. Either/Or, really.

Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:55 am
by General_101
Personally as someone who plays MetaDoom I often feel as if there is no real need for feedback on my part. I can't think of much that needs any real improvement besides things that have already been mentioned like the BFG alt fire for example. I can't think of any features to request because I expect you to have already thought of features to add considering this is just a mod blending features from Doom games. I personally can't think of any features or design directions you've taken that I disagree with at all. Pretty hard to think of anything useful to say in terms of feedback on my end personally.

All I can say is I find MetaDoom to be a pretty fun mod and I usually have it as my default gameplay mod for map packs on ZDE

Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:55 pm
by isaacpop23
I'd say less "shouting into the void" and more "perfectly satisfying the void". You're executing everything so well that there's little need to suggest things, the balance is great and I assume that you have enough ideas to keep you busy for awhile. Plus I'd figure it'd be annoying on both sides if people were to just leave repetitive on how amazing the mod is every time you post an update.

But in any case, this is my favorite gameplay mod so far, so I'm glad that you're continuing development, what ever your reasons may be. I'll be attentively awaiting the update!

Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:27 am
by Sleepyhead
I like the sound of some of those future ideas. Don't get too discouraged by the lack of feedback though; MetaDoom executes its concept so well that I have little to complain about. It's my go-to mod whenever I want to play Doom but I don't want to play the same old Doom, if that makes any sense. Because of that, I don't really have much to say about it and since I lack any skills to help, all I can do is sit and excitedly wait for what comes next.

tl;dr: What issacpop and general said.

Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:56 am
by JohnnyTheWolf
You do what you want to do. If you want to move on to another project, that is alright. :?

Re: MetaDoom v3.2 "Samuel" (p71)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:14 am
by Kinsie
v3.2 "Samuel" (~23mb)
On Github: Source Repo | Pre-Release Test Builds

Changelog wrote:v3.2 "Samuel" (01/04/17)
This version primarily makes under-the-hood changes to the mod's programming that will reduce instances of doing things "bad ways" and as a result hopefully result in better performance in certain situations.

Special thanks to Doomed_SpaceMarine on Twitch for finding some of these issues! Live on stream, just to multiply the embarassment of screwing up. :V

Weapon Changes:
- Reduced Chaingun turret ammo consumption... for real this time!
- Made the Lightning Gun stream look a little better from the first person
- Minor tweak to the Lightning Gun stun bomb effect

Minor Bugfixes (or as Chronoteeth would call it, Fun-Ruining):
- Fixed Nightmare Imps getting huge 'n' swole when resurrected
- Fixed Bruisers sometimes moonwalking when resurrected
- Fixed some potential issues with certain monster spawners (Mancubus, Arachnotron, Boss Monsters) that could cause certain scripts (for example, Doom64 MAP28) to not function correctly.

Monster Changes:
- Converted MonsterCore (the code all monsters inherit from & share) to ZScript
- Converted Lost Souls, Phantoms and Forgotten Ones to ZScript
- Changed how Lost Souls and co. spawn their fire to be less messily coded.
- Lost Souls and their ilk no longer trail fire if nobody's looking at them, potentially reducing lag in maps with scores of Lost Souls present.
- Flying monsters (Cacodemons, Lost Souls etc.) are no longer thrust upwards (and out of the player's reach) when punched. This should make it less frustrating for players with Berserk to fistfight Cacodemons etc.

- Options menu now has the "MetaDoom Options" button appended to the bottom of it by the engine, as opposed to overwriting the entire Options Menu to add it to the list.
- Deathmatch now replaces the score counter on the HUD with a frag counter
- Moved the Map Stats portion of the HUD a whopping TWO pixels to the left, WOW
- Minor LANGUAGE tweaks

Re: MetaDoom v3.2 "Samuel" (p71)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:04 pm
by whatup876
Nevermind, just had to update my source port

Re: MetaDoom v3.2 "Samuel" (p71)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:33 pm
by Captain J
When you encounter such suspicious errors, try to update your gzdoom next time. It mostly works when comes to outdated errors.

Re: MetaDoom v3.2 "Samuel" (p71)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:38 pm
by whatup876
Captain J wrote:When you encounter such suspicious errors, try to update your gzdoom next time. It mostly works when comes to outdated errors.

Already did, what i find weird is that the changelog mentions the Forgotten Ones, who i assume are new enemies but i haven't seen them yet, is this for a new upcoming update?
I think i know what the forgotten ones are and it could mean those baby souls from the Beholder, so now it makes sense that i didn't saw them when i used the summon command

Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:58 am
by TonicBH
Kinsie wrote:(thread)

I'm happy with what you've done so far, before I'd use something like ww-terror as my go to "mod to play vanilla Doom level sets with", and this replaced it. Having something that feels like a mixing bowl of Doom throughout the past 24 years is also pretty nice.

There's been a few ideas I've had for weapons: perhaps the D3 flashlight as a joke weapon alongside the D3 pistol, the D2016 shotgun with the semi-auto mode so the shotguns have a "dump weapon" (a weapon with the purpose of just wasting through ammo quickly), stuff like that. Maybe more representation for D3's bestiary, despite how generally plain that game's enemy selection is.

The only thing that bothered me was outright replacing barons/hell knights with exclusive versions while letting the smaller enemies have original and new variants. If I did this, I would just have so many variants of enemies that it'd probably become too overbearing like Aeons of Death.

But it's your mod, not mine. If I wanted to make it better, I'd do the blackjack and hookers technique and Do This Myself. But alas I'm bad at programming anything, so this'll do just fine. :P

There is one suggestion I'd consider, if that's possible to program: While there's a "content locust mode" which dumps all the enemy types together, I'd like to see a "ramp up/content adjustment" meter for partial mapsets and such.

Re: MetaDoom v3.1 "Samuel" (Help Wanted! p70)

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:52 am
by Kinsie
TonicBH wrote:There is one suggestion I'd consider, if that's possible to program: While there's a "content locust mode" which dumps all the enemy types together, I'd like to see a "ramp up/content adjustment" meter for partial mapsets and such.
I have the backbone programmed for, but keep putting off properly adding, separate values for actors getting introduced for Doom 1 episodes and NRFTL. Making things more flexible would probably require actual maths, which is well beyond my abilities. :V

Re: MetaDoom v3.2 "Samuel" (p71)

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:19 pm
by whatup876
There has to be solutions for the Mancubus problem

For the Druj, we could use the moves from the D4 Manc since he had at least 3 new attacks (i think): slamming the ground with his cannons for a shockwave attack (in D4D, he did a small jump for this), flamethrowers (when the player gets to close) and apparenlty shooting one of his cannons at a time (although this could be problematic in someway)

For the Cyber Manc, someone could see if his model is available for programs like SFM, so they could put him in different poses from different angles, edit them and make sprites out of it, even if they look out of style compared to the classic monsters.
Or just give the classic Manc a lighter pink toned skin and the metals parts attached to him, which is kinda like how the Fiend is just the classic Revenant with the red fleshy bones from Doom 4, it seems lazy but at least it fits with the theme of MetaDoom being a mix of stuff from the Doom series.

Or maybe i'm just having terrible ideas again.

Also, on the subject for D64 Arachno's name, either make a poll with multiple made up names to see which gets the most votes or do what they do in contest shows where the names are written in a spinning wheel and the name to get selected gets to be in.

Re: MetaDoom v3.64 "Samuel" (p71)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:08 am
by Kinsie
v3.64 "Samuel" (~23mb)
On Github: Source Repo | Pre-Release Test Builds

Changelog wrote:v3.64 "Samuel" (05/04/17)
This update adds special compatibility for my "Consolation Prize" version of Nevander's awesome Doom 64 Retribution TC. You can now rip and tear through Midway's corridors with 20 years of additional progress in your pocket. All that's missing is the Mother Demon... but maybe in the future...

- The Unmaker and Demon Keys now all spawn where they did in Doom 64.
- Nightmare Imps now spawn where they did in Doom 64.
- Unmakers no longer spawn from BFG spawn points in Doom 64.
- Demon Keys now lock the portals in MAP28 of Doom 64 as intended.
- Doom 64 liquid flats now have proper terrain fx and wash out blood splats
- Doom 64 liquid flats now refill the Holy Water Pistol as intended.

Re: MetaDoom v3.64 "Samuel" (p71)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:47 am
by wildweasel
Awesome, downloading ASAP.