[NEW!] Doom Delta v2.0 Released!

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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby DrPyspy » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:33 pm

Korell wrote:Okay, I just repeated my test, starting a new game of Knee Deep in the Dead on Ultra-Violence and then using the map command to go to E1M3, then playing through to the secret level, E1M9. First thing to note, it didn't crash this time. Second thing to note, the dolls for E1M3 and E1M9 were both at the very start of the level (E1M3 usually puts the doll in the secret area just around the corner from where the rocket launcher is). So am I right in guessing you've forced the dolls to the start of the map to prevent the crash from their original spawning method?


The crash seems to be coming from the first step of the doll spawning process. It crashes when checking if the sector that the potential actor is spawning on is a secret. With this removed, it just spawns in the first possible sector, which in most cases is where the player is. Now I just need to figure out an alternative to doing this, seeing as it crashes GZDoom. Thanks for helping out with this, its been really helpful. :D
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby JohnnyTheWolf » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:05 am

Out of curiosity, I went back and tried playing the latest build with the Smart Scavenger addon. Maybe that had nothing to do with the Doll spawning issue after all.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby PlayerLin » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 am

DrPyspy wrote:The crash seems to be coming from the first step of the doll spawning process. It crashes when checking if the sector that the potential actor is spawning on is a secret. With this removed, it just spawns in the first possible sector, which in most cases is where the player is. Now I just need to figure out an alternative to doing this, seeing as it crashes GZDoom. Thanks for helping out with this, its been really helpful. :D


Since it does crashing GZDooM, why not fire a report on bug forum and let GZDooM devs see if it's possible fix it from engine side or not.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby Cardboard Marty » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:40 am

This will probably be a bit of a goofy post, but I absolutely love the aesthetic of this project. I'm having a lot of fun playing it, the customization for monsters is really neat, the weapons feel pretty great and true to the source material. I'm really curious to see the direction you take in the future for this!
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby JohnnyTheWolf » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:43 pm

Same here! As I said before, I particularly love the Machine Gun. So much that I wish this could have been the Chaingun in vanilla Doom, because as iconic as the latter is, it definitely does not behave nor even sound like a Chaingun. I also appreciate that Doom Delta's iteration of the Unmaker is something different than just a railgun for once.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby Retraux Squid » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:34 pm

Once more, incredible job.

Things I particularly love are the feel of the Machine Gun, the various rebalances, and the new AI for the machine gun guys. I do like that even if they'll refuse to shoot their friends in the back while in a mob, they still can be "baited" into infighting. I also like how you can now put helmets on shotgun guys.

A few suggestions for little rebalances here and there though:

- Add an option (default: off, kinda like how you can still have the old Lost Soul attacks or the Alpha hitscan even if it's a bit unfair relative to vanilla LS placement): Zombie Intelligence. Basically, any former-human will exhibit the same "hold-fire" behavior of the machine gun guys. You could have four options for this: MGG/CGG Only (aka the default), On (only holding fire on the same species- so a zombieman would have no problem with attacking even if a sergeant was in the way), and Total (aka any former human will try not to shoot any other former human, which'd screw up balance a bit but'd help as a difficulty enhancer in the same way as the Alpha LS attacks).

- Make MG Guys a little more "aggressive" with their LoS checks (i.e. also checking a few degrees to the sides). Currently, given that Doom monsters often exhibit a side-to-side strafe while moving toward a target, it's relatively easy for two MG Guys to infight in a corridor (both advance, back guy strafes a bit, stops to open fire, front guy is not directly in front of him, back guy shoots and hits front guy, resulting infight).'

- Alternatively you could simply edit the line of sight check so that instead of holding still and aiming, the machinegunner returns to his "chase" state without even having visually appeared to attempt a missile state. This prevents weird standing-still chains that result from machinegunner crowds, and more over makes sense (after all, if they want to attack but there's someone in the way already shooting, they would probably rather move around the friendly instead of simply aiming at their target and waiting for the friendly to get out of the way).

- Have chaingunners and machine gun guys share the same anti-infighting behavior, as it sorta nullifies itself if a chaingunner sets up his big cannon and starts blasting away into the back of a machine gunner crowd.

- In return for the lack of precise aim on the Machine Gun, allow it to fire single shots instead of doublets.

- Give MG Guys the same fire rate as the player, but force them to shoot repeated bursts instead of full-auto (kinda like the Combine Soldiers from HL2). Between each burst, you could have them check LoS again, meaning that they would be slightly less easy to unintentionally infight-bait if you're strafing around a crowd. This wouldn't apply in a CPosRefire way (i.e. LoS with player, just checking if they're behind a friendly), so if you duck behind a wall you can hear them lighting it up for a little bit.

- The Super Shotgun is missing a bit of its bottom frames on reload sprites when using the GZDoom HUD (i.e. no statusbars).
Last edited by Retraux Squid on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby JohnnyTheWolf » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:49 pm

Retraux Squid wrote:- The Super Shotgun is missing a bit of its bottom frames on reload sprites when using the GZDoom HUD (i.e. no statusbars).


Yes, I already reported that. The Plasma Rifle also has that problem.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby Retraux Squid » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:09 pm

Funny thing: +AVOIDMELEE is one of the greatest flags for making your monsters seem smarter while still looking very "vanilla".

It's a ported feature from MBF; simply put, monsters will gain the ability to "retreat" (that is, move normally while continually facing their target, and moving away from them while still regularly using their missile attack) when they believe it will confer an advantage (e.g. if the player is holding a Chainsaw, berserk Fists, or they're attacking something like a Demon or other melee-only monster). It looks especially great when applied to "intelligent" monsters like former humans and arachnotrons, and also works great for monsters like Pain Elementals that are helpless in melee.

EDIT: Also, I've found these sprites for a Marine armed with the Machine Gun; I think that with a little editing they'd do excellently as zombie marine sprites if you ever decided to change the current Machine Gun Guy sprites.
Last edited by Retraux Squid on Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby JohnnyTheWolf » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:55 pm

I do not think former humans should be smart in the first place or even care about other former humans. I mean, they are basically zombies with guns, i.e. cannon fodder. Heck, I do not even think they should be able to fight among each other: they should just be shooting at the player. Demons, on the other hand, I can see them being actually smart and having a reason to avoid infighting.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby Retraux Squid » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:44 pm

Thought: You could have a "UAC Encyclopedia" section of sorts in the menu. Here you'd be able to look at various weapons and monsters with their pictures displayed. I went and updated the writeups to reflect this:

Spoiler:
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby JohnnyTheWolf » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:37 pm

It has been a while since the last update. Is the mod still being worked on or has it been put on a hiatus?
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby DrPyspy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:41 am

JohnnyTheWolf wrote:It has been a while since the last update. Is the mod still being worked on or has it been put on a hiatus?


Sorry for the lack of communication, I've been busy cooking up a new version.

Cardboard Marty wrote:This will probably be a bit of a goofy post, but I absolutely love the aesthetic of this project. I'm having a lot of fun playing it, the customization for monsters is really neat, the weapons feel pretty great and true to the source material. I'm really curious to see the direction you take in the future for this!


Thanks! I focused a lot on making things feel authentic, and making sure that the mod felt consistent with its content. There is still a lot of pre-release content I'd like to bring into this mod, so stay tuned. :D

JohnnyTheWolf wrote:Same here! As I said before, I particularly love the Machine Gun. So much that I wish this could have been the Chaingun in vanilla Doom, because as iconic as the latter is, it definitely does not behave nor even sound like a Chaingun. I also appreciate that Doom Delta's iteration of the Unmaker is something different than just a railgun for once.


Thanks! I really wanted the Dark Claw and the Unmaker to feel unique from other interpretations.

Retraux Squid wrote:Once more, incredible job.

Things I particularly love are the feel of the Machine Gun, the various rebalances, and the new AI for the machine gun guys. I do like that even if they'll refuse to shoot their friends in the back while in a mob, they still can be "baited" into infighting. I also like how you can now put helmets on shotgun guys.

A few suggestions for little rebalances here and there though:

- Add an option (default: off, kinda like how you can still have the old Lost Soul attacks or the Alpha hitscan even if it's a bit unfair relative to vanilla LS placement): Zombie Intelligence. Basically, any former-human will exhibit the same "hold-fire" behavior of the machine gun guys. You could have four options for this: MGG/CGG Only (aka the default), On (only holding fire on the same species- so a zombieman would have no problem with attacking even if a sergeant was in the way), and Total (aka any former human will try not to shoot any other former human, which'd screw up balance a bit but'd help as a difficulty enhancer in the same way as the Alpha LS attacks).

- Make MG Guys a little more "aggressive" with their LoS checks (i.e. also checking a few degrees to the sides). Currently, given that Doom monsters often exhibit a side-to-side strafe while moving toward a target, it's relatively easy for two MG Guys to infight in a corridor (both advance, back guy strafes a bit, stops to open fire, front guy is not directly in front of him, back guy shoots and hits front guy, resulting infight).'

- Alternatively you could simply edit the line of sight check so that instead of holding still and aiming, the machinegunner returns to his "chase" state without even having visually appeared to attempt a missile state. This prevents weird standing-still chains that result from machinegunner crowds, and more over makes sense (after all, if they want to attack but there's someone in the way already shooting, they would probably rather move around the friendly instead of simply aiming at their target and waiting for the friendly to get out of the way).

- Have chaingunners and machine gun guys share the same anti-infighting behavior, as it sorta nullifies itself if a chaingunner sets up his big cannon and starts blasting away into the back of a machine gunner crowd.

- In return for the lack of precise aim on the Machine Gun, allow it to fire single shots instead of doublets.

- Give MG Guys the same fire rate as the player, but force them to shoot repeated bursts instead of full-auto (kinda like the Combine Soldiers from HL2). Between each burst, you could have them check LoS again, meaning that they would be slightly less easy to unintentionally infight-bait if you're strafing around a crowd. This wouldn't apply in a CPosRefire way (i.e. LoS with player, just checking if they're behind a friendly), so if you duck behind a wall you can hear them lighting it up for a little bit.

- The Super Shotgun is missing a bit of its bottom frames on reload sprites when using the GZDoom HUD (i.e. no statusbars).


For existing monsters, I don't think I'll be altering their intelligence from the base game. On the bright side, the machinegunner is becoming smarter! I'm still working on him, but I've implemented some of your suggestions. Something I want to implement is for him to check a little bit to the left and to the right, and for him to stop if his view is disrupted for more than 10-15 tics. I'm experimenting with making it so that he only checks for his bretheren so that situations where a chaingunner would infight with another demon will still occur. He feels a little incomplete at the moment, but he's holding up pretty well. Still unsure where to go with the sprites, but I'll have it figured out before the final release.

The SSG and Plasma Rifle are fixed down below, although the SSG still horizontally cuts off which will need to be fixed up as well. As for the UAC Encyclopedia, I'm definitely interested in it! I could easily repurpose the code from the MetaDoom Codex that I've had in the works. 3.0 or 4.0 would be good releases to implement it into.

Speaking of releases, here is a new beta version of Doom Delta!

A major change have been made to dolls which will hopefully stop the weirdness surrounding them. They now spawn in carefully selected spots on certain maps, making them feel more rewarding as opposed to finding a doll in the middle of nowhere. This should also prevent it acting strangely when other mods are loaded, but I can't promise anything when it comes to compatibility with other mods. One drawback is that they won't spawn on 'unsupported' mapsets, but I'm hoping to expand the list of supported mapsets. Currently the first 3 episodes of Doom 1 and all of Doom 2 are supported. You'll also notice an early implementation of pickup messages! Currently they support all non-fullscreen HUDs. Let me know how you feel about them! One thing I haven't fixed that I had written down was the color inconsistency between the Rifle and the Bayonet, which I'm open to suggestions on how to properly 'fix' it. I also got sick of the dancing baby gif, so he has been retired.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby JohnnyTheWolf » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:34 am

Glad to hear from you and your mod again!

Out of curiosity, why are you making the Machinegunner smarter than the other Possessed? Frankly, so far, that seems be making them less dangerous than the Chaingunner. Also, why are the pickup messages not centered - even though I have enabled that option in GZDoom. They also seem to ignore my current scaling options. However, sometimes I do not get a pickup message for the Dolls. How come? Finally, the M_SKULL icon in the main meny seems to get cut off at the bottom.

On the bright side, cool new titlescreen! I also like the new firing sound for the Rifle.

EDIT: I meant to ask you for a long time, but now that Lost Souls have corpses, can they be revived by Arch-Viles?
Last edited by JohnnyTheWolf on Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby edgymemester » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:40 am

I sort of brought this up a while ago, but since the mod has alternate enemy skins, how about alternate weapons skins?

As in, I see you use a new, mixed retail-alpha shotgun sprite (upper half is alpha lower half is retail). Can there be an option to use the original, unedited alpha shotgun sprite?

Or an option to use the 0.4 alpha rifle instead of the 0.5 alpha rifle?

Also, are you planning to edit the rocket launcher's sprite in anyway like some other similar mods have?
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Re: Doom Delta v2.0 BETA TEST!

Postby Retraux Squid » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:37 pm

JohnnyTheWolf wrote:Out of curiosity, why are you making the Machinegunner smarter than the other Possessed?


Not to answer for DrPyspy, but I always thought Machinegunners in this mod were former marines of sorts (their brownish-green shirts kinda look like severely dirtied marine shirts to me). If they were better-trained before possession than basic security troops (riflemen, shotgunners) they would obviously be smarter and more tactical in combat, which translates to "don't shoot the guy in front of you" in the Doom engine (and by extension this'd probably go for chaingunners too, given their elite role).

Also,
Script error, "DoomDelta_v2_Beta_11-2-2017.pk3:fontdefs" line 45:
BESMZ: Unable to find texture in font definition for SMALLHUD_BETA
ParseTeamInfo: Load team definitions.
LoadActors: Load actor definitions.
Script error, "DoomDelta_v2_Beta_11-2-2017.pk3:zscript.txt" line 57:
Unknown function ToUpper
Execution could not continue.
1 errors while parsing DECORATE scripts

Deleting both of these errors allows the beta to play seemingly unhitched, but I figured you should know about it.

I love the new beta; the machinegunners are much better now, though they seem to still have problems with targeting (namely, while they're much better at averting infights now, they tend to become far less frequent in attacking when multiple of them are near the player; the only time I could get two machinegunners to attack me is when they were either on complete opposite sides of me or when I was backed into a 90-degree corner with two machinegunners coming on each wall).

I think that machinegunners are suffering primarily from the fact that multiple occupy each chaingunner "slot". While I don't think the entire spawning and anti-infighting system must be eliminated, there are three possibilities from what I see:
    1. The anti-infighting system is perfected; the machinegunners work as intended.
    2. The anti-infighting system is too difficult; they are reverted to the old "undamaged by each other's bullets" system.
    3. The anti-infighting system is too difficult; machinegunners are edited to have 50-60 health and superior offensive power, and replace chaingunners as single enemies instead of doubles or triples.

1 is obviously the best there, but if it proves too much to work without glitches and weird AI behavior then 3 would be the next best, with 2 being the least effective (owing to the fact that it would render any friendly-spawned machinegunners useless at attacking enemy machinegunners, and looks a bit strange).

EDIT: By adding the +MISSILEMORE flag to the MachineGunGuy actor, they've become far less anemic and the system feels a LOT better (though i'm still seeing them stop and pause instead of returning to the See state for whatever reason). I think the primary problem with the system is the fact that machinegunners use the standard 22.5 degree spread of a former human bullet; this forces the system to either be overly restrictive (leading to machinegunners refusing to attack despite being right next to the player, because their bullets just MIGHT hit a machinegunner nearby) or be useless (leading to machinegunners shooting each other just as regularly as troopers and sergeants because they hit a machinegunner 5 degrees to the right of their "crosshair"). Given that machinegunners already have a lowered rate of fire and severely nerfed bullet damage, I think you could get away with highly increasing their accuracy (possibly give them something like a 5 x 5 degree "cone" of accuracy instead of a planar 22.5), which would help toward the anti-infighting system. Editing the original R667 machinegunguy to have the same low bullet damage as the Delta machinegunner, plus 5-round bursts and the 5x5 accuracy cone, seems to work just fine- it's certainly not any faster to be killed by 4 machinegunners than by 2 chaingunners when tested in Plutonia.
Last edited by Retraux Squid on Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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