Colourful Hell 1.01 fix fix tweak tweak

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What do with black shotgun spawn?

Poll ended at Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:24 am

keep as they are
0
No votes
modify a little for ranged options
0
No votes
Remake the crew for better variance
2
29%
Remake with focus on the leader as the boss
5
71%
Rehaul and scrap the concept, make something else shotgunny instead
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 7

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Frozenwolf150
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Frozenwolf150 »

Daemeon93 wrote:Would you be willing to nerf some of the black/white level monsters?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I wouldn't want to see these creatures nerfed. They're meant to be boss type encounters, they're meant to kick your ass if you're not prepared, and they're supposed to be rewarding when you finally beat them. If I were to suggest an alternative, it would be a menu option to tweak the spawn chances of black/white creatures, so that players can use that along with the difficulty settings if they find it too hard or too easy.

Mind you, I'm biased because I love a challenge. I always play Doom RLA on Armageddon, and I've beaten wads with Doom RPG on AYABED. It forces you to innovate and come up with new strategies. But it's not for everyone.
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4thcharacter
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by 4thcharacter »

As the other guy said, they're boss enemies. There could be a way to make a menu that increases their rarity even more. But we'll just have to wait if there's such a feature for the next version. However, there is a way to disable boss encounters in the menu. That's all we have right now.
Truvix
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Truvix »

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I also have to agree that nerfing the black/white tier encounters probably isn't a great idea, seeing as they're meant to be the single greatest threat to your existence and require you to really play a bit wiser than fighting some of the lower-tier mobs. I like to play this with Trailblazer, and these encounters are really the only ones that can give Malcolm a hard time on a semi-regular basis , so I fear that any noticeable nerf to their stats or attack patterns could cause the scales to tip massively in that regard. I find that by the time I've upgraded most of my arsenal, multiple black and white spawns on the same level are the only thing that could possibly cause me any problems, as there's no way any of the grunt mobs can stand up to anything more than 3 seconds of sustained firepower. I realize that Trailblazer is up there on the OP scale, and it's not going to be everyone's choice of weapon pairing for this mod, but I feel that my point still stands.

I think that the only thing I'd really give you as possibly being straight-up bullshit would be the White Hell Knight. Homing projectiles always tend to be a bit of an annoyance, but from my experience with the White Hell Knight, the tracking on the ghosts that they spawn is something else entirely. Those things will follow you clear to the opposite side of the map and no amount of running around I've done has ever allowed me to successfully shake them. It wouldn't be quite as bad if there were some way to properly destroy these things, like how Revenant rockets can still be baited into hitting walls, but as it stands, I've found a lot my other fights to be fairly reasonable (I've had 4 black and white encounters on the second map of a wad before, but this is a very rare occurrence).
Daemeon93
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Daemeon93 »

Truvix wrote:At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I also have to agree that nerfing the black/white tier encounters probably isn't a great idea, seeing as they're meant to be the single greatest threat to your existence and require you to really play a bit wiser than fighting some of the lower-tier mobs. I like to play this with Trailblazer, and these encounters are really the only ones that can give Malcolm a hard time on a semi-regular basis , so I fear that any noticeable nerf to their stats or attack patterns could cause the scales to tip massively in that regard. I find that by the time I've upgraded most of my arsenal, multiple black and white spawns on the same level are the only thing that could possibly cause me any problems, as there's no way any of the grunt mobs can stand up to anything more than 3 seconds of sustained firepower. I realize that Trailblazer is up there on the OP scale, and it's not going to be everyone's choice of weapon pairing for this mod, but I feel that my point still stands.

I think that the only thing I'd really give you as possibly being straight-up bullshit would be the White Hell Knight. Homing projectiles always tend to be a bit of an annoyance, but from my experience with the White Hell Knight, the tracking on the ghosts that they spawn is something else entirely. Those things will follow you clear to the opposite side of the map and no amount of running around I've done has ever allowed me to successfully shake them. It wouldn't be quite as bad if there were some way to properly destroy these things, like how Revenant rockets can still be baited into hitting walls, but as it stands, I've found a lot my other fights to be fairly reasonable (I've had 4 black and white encounters on the second map of a wad before, but this is a very rare occurrence).
That would be fine if they weren't such bullet sponges. Having to spend a few minutes on one guy alone isn't really fun, at least for me. The White Arch Vile (the one that spams imps) takes so many hits that it just gets annoying trying to deal with his imp spawn AND try to kill him

The amount of damage the high tier monsters deal isn't the problem. It's that the amount of time it takes to kill them is.
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4thcharacter
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by 4thcharacter »

Well, they're bosses so they should take some hits to kill. Mostly you wouldn't see bosses in games that die in a couple of hits.

If you're playing this w/ DoomRL then it shouldn't be that hard. The monsters of the summoner enemies drop goods so you can whittle the bosses bit by bit via hit and run tactics whilst getting far just to slay the monsters they summoned.

Though, if it's on map 01 and you don't have much places to run into then you should just reroll the map unless you're really masochistic and care for the challenge and possible early rare loot.
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by nakkemake »

Don't nerf them. :D
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4thcharacter
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by 4thcharacter »

So if the next version is going to be released, is it going to be still compatible with GZDoom 1.9.1?
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Untitled »

I'll fully admit though, as much as I like the boss black/white monsters...

Black Shotgunner is stupid. It's legitimately a worse threat than black monsters that should be worse than it.
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Hege Cactus
 
 
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Hege Cactus »

Edit to avoid doubleposting: I had the "luck" to face several white enemies on consecutive levels since posting this, so I can give my opinion on them.
The white zombie is mostly notable for its gimmick; the enemy itself has a lot of health but isn't particularly tough to take out, but the skeletons can blindside you, especially if you expect them to stop spawning from dead enemies once you killed the necromancer.
The white lost soul is strange. I encountered it while playing with DoomRL Arsenal and having a demolition uzi, so it didn't get the chance to do much, but I can see how it would be a real bastard with a weaker weapon. Question: do the monsters it changes into have their own health pools, or does damaging them still hurt the lost soul?
The white spider is absolutely bullshit, which is fine for a white enemy. I actually thought at first that it was worse than it looked, because it seemed like the little spiders were growing into big ones once the main spider got killed. But no, it's not literally unbeatable, it's just ridiculously hard. One thing though, the little spiders can get stuck outside the map really easily, and then they continue making their noises forever which is really unnerving.
White zombie is extremely level dependant, if he spawns somewhere where he can gain the dead enemy buff a lot, he gets a lot harder.
White soul has one healthpool, it just changed the look to spam the specie move.
White spider is kinda wonky, I admit. I should probably add the skeleton anti stuck debug to the smaller guys.
I think you should change normal Revenant back to its original behavior. Its new behavior that fire 2 missiles at once makes it more terrify than its green and blue version. Not to mention that it has chance to kill player with <=100% heath and 0 armor in one attack, if both missile hit.
I think one of the major problems might be that I have forgotten to add damage type to the defaul revenant missile, I should look into it, I have noticed it myself that sometimes default revenant missiles are just outright brutal, but sometimes not.
PLZ keep the fireblu enemies! Gray can go, and obviously the fireblus need variation, since the ones i've come across are just reds or oranges with a filter, but it's just such a great and hilarious enemy class and I feel like there could be some great gimmicks revolved around bad textures and color schemes that look like a palette error. But I think maybe just parts of the enemy in fireblu would be easier on the eyes, like a Sergeant wearing camouflage for hell or a chaingunner with a sick new Star Trak (Tm) chaingun camo. Grays could be cool too, if you involved a whole stone theme like blues have railguns and plasma and how greens have poison. Zombies could just be cavemen who throw rocks and there's a good example of a stone demon in TheUnbeholden's monster randomizer. Good luck with finishing up the mod, it's my go-to and regardless of what people said on the trailblazer community monster pack, I think it goes perfect with trailblazer, as the dropped health and armor bonuses actually have some impact since their effect is doubled and the higher up enemies really make use of malcom's fight and flight power, and of course the mods balance each other out in terms of difficulty. I'm an avid fan and this mod has definitely helped my desire for doomage remain. Pixel puke Cybies for all!
I might add them as optional toggle for the singleplayer in later date
They are surprisingly funny.
Here's the updated Guncaster patch for 0.87
👌
I wonder if anyone already have encountered this bug; when the Bones are on the level, from the presence of the white zombie, twice I had to put myself into an invulnerability state since some parts of the level were becoming harmful, in a way like lava does, decreasing your life meter each seconds with the slashing sound that the resurected skeletons make when they attack you. Then, I could go elsewhere on the level and be safe and come back to the affected area with the remaining effect. Very strange. Nobody was on top of me (I checked that).

While I'm on the negative sides, I wonder if there will be a fix for the bosses presentation's messages at the start; in my config, they are one over others with the yellow Cybie's late late appearance.

I also find Mancubuses to be weaker than expected. Even more with the spiders.

Appart from other tiny details, this mod is AWESOME. I aslways combine it with trailblazer and it simply rocks.

I wait for further updates with a smile
Huh, thats odd. Tho have you checked the walls? its possible a skeleton might've gotten stuck inside a wall.
I am not sure how to go about fixing the presentation messages visually, tho yellow cybies one is outdated a bit. They should log into console atleast.

Well that kinda depends, once you run into them in open spots, you might change your mind :P
There's one feature that I would love to be here. I want to be able to change the odds of rarer enemy spawns so drastically that it brings me to tears.
something I'm hoping to do in future, but it would require overhaul of the whole spawn system.
Okay, I just finished EPIC2.wad and Alien vendetta.wad with Colorful hell MOD recently. (Massacre maps with this mod are totally crazy). It is possible to do with original doom weapons by using double ammo set up. Here are my comments on some standout monsters.

Blue Chain gunner : WOW, the accuracy of this guy is very terrifying. He can hit me from the opposite end of a map (very very far away!)

Purple Demon/Specter and Orange Demon/Specter : These guys are totally unfair in close encounter. SSG and rocket can't kill them in one shot so I often get bite from their dash attack. Specter version is even more annoying. They are completely invisible aside from the time they are attacking.

Orange Revenant : This guy always manage to surprise me with his sudden enter through the wall. Did he see me through the wall and walk to me from his spawn location??

Blue Baron / Purple Baron : I always get a lot of damage from those bouncing balls. I hate them the most. How is it even possible to dodge Purple Baron bouncing balls in a small and narrow area??

Purple Mancubus : OH GOD! those bouncing balls of doom. I think the balls should disappear a bit quicker.

Red Mancubus : The attack that he uses when player is near to him can easily 1 hit KO the player, if hit exactly under player feet and it's very hard to dodge.

Orange (Yellow) Archvile : Absolute madness. BFG spam until he die.

Red Mastermind : Those homing red balls are very awesome. However, I can't seem to destroy the balls with Plasma rifle and BFG. Is it intentional?

Green Cybie : Hahaha, I often eat rocket in the face when he fires two rockets. Green Cybie and Green mastermind's poison mist make them unbeatable in monster infighting.

Red Cybie : I suggest that player should be able to destroy those hell portals that open and shoot out fire balls.

Black Imp : Can you make those dark mist deal no damage? It already hard enough to dodge his attack in the mist.

Black Revenant : Please nerf this guy bit. His attacks are ways too strong and too fast. Maybe you should remove his ability to throw back player's shot too.

Black Cybie : I suggest that player should be able to destroy those three red balls attack before they hit the wall and create multiple fire path.

Oh my, this is a lot of feedback.
Blue chaingunner is like that yeah, Ive nerfed him a few times tho, his damage used to be a lot higher.
Spectre/Demon: In vanilla, yeah, they are. I rather not tweak em too much tho, or they might get too wuss.
Orange Rev: default doom behavior, they kinda always know where you are.
Barons: I've tweaked those balls quite often, but yeah, very area dependant. I really cannot check for small areas to change purple barons move, so gotta pray for the rng.
PurpleManc: I'm aiming to tweak them balls a lot more, they are rather wonky and I've tweaked them a lot in the past too, they are hard to get right.
RedManc: I kinda agree, but this is one of those that I am unsure on how to tweak, might try make em more obvious for start I guess?
YellowArch: I know right, might tweak his spawn limits a bit more or make a check if theres multiple of em around to limit them then.
RedMaster: You should be able to? That's odd if you cant.
GreenCyb/MS: Yeah, gonna tweak em in the future patch.
RedCybie: The volcanos are bit so so for that, I've considered that, but I'll have to see how to go about it cause I dont want to make em breakable by other monsters. The phase 2 portals are breakable.
BlackImp: That would make it too easy, tho I have nerfed the gas a lot before, I might nerf it more tho, the gas is a big weapon for him but it tends to be hard to balance. I kinda want to make the gas not work if player has rad suit tho.
BlackRevenant: I might tweak the speeds and timings a bit, but I wont remove his abilities. He is making sure no one can pass you know
BlackCybie: A nice idea, tho has the same issue as red cybie volcanoes. If I can make it so only player shots can break em, then I could add it in.
Would you be willing to nerf some of the black/white level monsters?
I do give them balance tweaks, but I do not aim to do gigantic nerfs. If you have specific issues, you can tell me about it and if there's agreement on them, I'll see about tweaking those parts, as you can see from above.
Feedback is always welcome and I want to make the bosses feel boss like, but I also want them to be somewhat "fair" so they aren't completely bullshit. It will take few tries to learn most of the bosses behaviors tho, so take that into consideration.
if you have too much trouble with them, you can turn them off from the menu.
I'll fully admit though, as much as I like the boss black/white monsters...

Black Shotgunner is stupid. It's legitimately a worse threat than black monsters that should be worse than it.
How so? He's pretty merciful with the whole "telling what he's gonna do" thing.

So if the next version is going to be released, is it going to be still compatible with GZDoom 1.9.1?
I dont know? I kinda tend to work on based what the current normal ZDoom release is. So I dont really know much on gzdoom side


I've had a lot things going on so I havent been able to work on CH as much as I wanted to, but luckily most of the stuff has now slowed down, so I am hoping I can throw out a new version at the start of next month at the least
marina2
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by marina2 »

One thing I would like you to put in next version: Since the mod already have the option to allow/not allow black and white enemy to spawn in a map , how about you add the option to guarantee that at least one black or white enemy will spawn in a map too?
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4thcharacter
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by 4thcharacter »

I have an idea on how to tweak red mancubus and green cybie.

On green cybie, decreasing the explosion radius of his rockets would be a definite start since his rockets leave a bunch of poison clouds, making the rocket's explosion kind of an overkill. Maybe decrease the explosion damage a bit too.

Red mancubus could have a relatively short "charge-up" before he does his ground-fire attack so the players have a window of time to avoid the nasty attack. Just to not make it unfair for Red manc, during the charge-up, make him take less damage by giving him an armor of his own. The Ice Golem from R667 is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. That enemy has a chance to heal itself and when it does it takes less damage because it's given an "armor" item, and after he's done the "armor" is taken away.
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Frozenwolf150
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Frozenwolf150 »

Slightly off-topic, but are there any plans to expand this mod to Heretic and Hexen? I know Wrath of Cronos already does something similar, replacing some enemies at random with different colored variants with new abilities. However, you can't use that with other weapon mods.
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Rowsol
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Rowsol »

I've finally gotten around to putting some serious time into this mod. Unfortunately, when it comes to slaughter maps I can't use this. The framerate drops to single digits on Combat Shock 2 map04 when you go in the red door room. This is a benchmark I like to use. I've been playing through Sunlust with it and when I got to map24's giant end battle my framerate was so bad I had to exit the game. If there's any performance tweaking you could do that would be great. Or if you don't like slaughter maps just ignore me.

Edit: I should point out that I changed the spawn chances. I'm assuming the performance is much better when there isn't a lot of the more fancy monsters using fire spells and stuff.

Edit2: I found an issue with using LegenDoom with this. If a yellow revenant spawns and it's a legend you get a free soulsphere. The red HK has a simpler way of spawning buddies that should probably be copied to the Yellow revenant.
Homieofepicton
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by Homieofepicton »

Can I see what the monsters looks like? from Green to White. I just wanna look at them because I don't own Doom. :c

Sorry if this is any inconvenience to you.

(I literally just made an account, just to say this.)
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Re: [WIP]Colourful Hell 0.87 taken under

Post by BoneofMalkav »

I noticed that with Trailblazer 1.4, the event where the sword and shield wielding skeletons (Forgot what the event is called) will cause a random monster to instead of spawning said skeleton will for some odd reason cause the player to take constant damage as if they were standing in lava or acid (forgot the amount of damage dealt) until either player dies or somehow finds the exit. So how would I go about disabling that specific even through Slade?
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