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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby -Ghost- » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:47 pm

Just played through Episode 3 of Ultimate Doom with the latest version. It may have been because it was Doom 1, but I was full on pretty much everything the whole time, ammo, health/armor, etc. Getting ammo from fatalities is a good idea, but I think it might help to have more things mixed in that you can get. Maybe high level monsters could drop powerups like maps, etc, or maybe even custom items designed to go with the mod. At the least I think it'd help to have it be ammo or health/armor so you still get something useful, though I almost always had 200+ health running through.

I agree about the pistol being pretty weak. I think it'd be better off having ammo again, but doing enough damage to down a zombie in a couple shots, sort of like a good moderately powered backup.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby johnny » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Wall of responses time! Check the OP for a changelog and new downloads and holiday cheer.

Devianteist - I updated the vanilla grenades to work within Smooth Doom. This took way longer than I expected it to. Not exactly hard work, just lots of tedious copying/pasting/retyping. Still no punching and kicking, however, which I know you were excited for :( I'm working on it though I promise.

Mav3rick - Footsteps are never in sync with movement, that's just kinda the way it is. Every Doom mod I've ever played will play the footsteps sound even when you're barely moving. Barrels take more damage (still very touchy) to explode because I was tired of accidently blowing them up and wasting them with a stray shot. Now they only blow up when you specifically want them to. Rifle sound has been fixed, though I had them as different sounds intentionally at first. The firing sound is actually a loop of me draining an AR clip in Halo 4, so there's not a specific single sound I could use for a single shot. I fixed this by starting the loop upon firing and quickly cutting it off with another sound, so it's consistent with auto fire but sounds pretty weak. As for the keys not showing up on the HUD, I don't have that problem, it's always shown up fine for me. Make sure you're using the latest SVN release of gzdoom.

Carbine Dioxide - That's actually just a recoil sprite, and I don't think it'd work as an ADS sprite because it's more of a looking down at the top of a barrel pointed up at a 45 degree angle sort of deal. I'm pretty neutral about the SSG secondary fire--I never use it, so it could stay or go. I don't think ADS would work for the SSG, as it's not really something you have to specifically aim, just point in the enemy's direction and blast all over because it's a spread weapon. Giving a tighter spread function to the SSG would steal too much of the shotgun's thunder too, I believe. The BDSE voxels mod is actully where I got 90% of the voxels for this mod. It had a shotgun with a grey pump on the front but I didn't like it. The doom64 shotgun is still black (okay, blue-black) and brown, so the og shotgun voxel works, right? You're correct about the pistol sprites, they are indeed from Weapons of Saturn. I like them too. That is a really badass rocket launcher, and I actually considered using that before I even released this to fit in with the other doom64 weapons. I just can't part with the original BD RL sprites, they're so awesome, it's my favorite weapon by far.

Shadez12 - Go into Enemy Healthbar Options in the menu and mess with some of the toggles. If that doesn't work, try starting with a fresh zdoom.ini.

Phantom Allies - Thanks dude! I hope "stiff gameplay" is a good thing, heh.

Crudux Cruo - I fixed the pistol's casings and clip to be more fitting of a pistol, and the rifle sounds are consistent now. I also dropped the ADS damage down by 1, as 10 was probably a little excessive. I like the original doom pistol sprites, so I think I'm gonna stick with them, though I'm open to changing the rott-based side sprites if I can find something better. But dude that glock is fucking sweet, I'm gonna put both of those mutators in my mega/dropbox folders if you don't mind. You're clearly pretty good with sprites, think you could whip up something for the ADS rifle/shotgun? I made one for the shotgun but it looks like ass and I'd really like to change it. Your knife idea is a good one. I had thought about this before, and actually had a knife slash/stab as a combo at one point before my initial release. They were the knife sprites from ICD though and didn't really fit so I took them out. If I had some decent looking ones I'd probably definitely make a knife weapon.

As for the rifle damage, I have toyed with it for weeks and weeks and weeks, and I think it's perfectly balanced where it is now. If the damage is any higher it really steals the minigun's thunder (9 damage is exactly what the minigun does) and takes down ALL enemies way too fast for what it is. I had the damage barely higher than it is now for awhile and it was clearly the best weapon so I had to nerf it a tad. Right now it fires at 6, or has a 40% chance to fire at 7. I think this nails what an AR should be damagewise, plus makes it so the gunflash changes randomly, in true AR fashion. It's supposed to be dependable but not a rape machine. Plasma rifle sprites... probably gonna change those. You're not the only one who doesn't like them. I love the plasma shotgun altfire, so that's here to stay. I might tighten up the spread though. Heat bar would be cool but I don't know how I'd implement it. For now, just know that when it starts shooting superfast, stop cause it's gonna overheat any second.

Grenades actually do have shrapnel! Those lines zipping away from the explosions are the shrapnel. It does small amounts of damage but the damage is there. I think the grenades have plenty of oomf--they blow the shit out of everything. You can clear an entire room of imps with just one. I think they have too much oomf but I like things over the top. If everything's over the top, that still counts as balance, right? Hah. Powerbar... no clue how I'd do that. If you want to throw it further or closer, just aim higher or lower to achieve the same effect. I could understand a powerbar if mouseaiming wasn't a thing, but it is, so such a thing is kinda unnecessary. Also I kicked the imp reward down to 3, and they are ever so slightly more bouncy. Should be easier to bounce them around corners now.

DominicWhite - Thanks for the kind words. I fixed the punches so they're widescreen-friendly now. I'm kinda torn on the plasma rifle, as the sprites are my favorite I've come across, but I agree that they're kinda inconsistent. I have a sprite sheet of a brown gloved original BD plasma rifle, so I might revert, because you're not the only one who has mentioned not liking it in its current state. Zpack IS really cool, so yeah I'll probably do that! Thanks for the suggestion.

Skrell - An astute observation--that is indeed NOT the default one from brutal 19, nor are any of the other weapons' sprites, save for the RL/BFG. The mod that chaingun is from is called BDJ and was made by a guy named johnny. I made it with gimp. Please don't automatically assume I'm here to steal other's work and give no credit. If you're wondering if you can use my chaingun sprites, the answer for you, individually, is no. The assault rifle sprites are from a sprite sheet I found on google, made by Mike12, and the pistol reload frames are from Weapons of Saturn by Lippeth. Everything else I either made, heavily modified, or already gave credit for in the OP. As for Zandronum compatibility, I'm afraid that's a no go. Zandronum doesn't recognize label jumps when using A_JumpIfInventory, you can only do a jump by a certain number of states down from where you use it. For example, A_JumpIfInventory("Kicking",1,"DoKick") doesn't work, but A_JumpIfInventory("Kicking",1,78) does. I'm not gonna count out 78 lines down or whatever number it is that I need to jump every single time. This is why you'll see TNT1 AAAAAAAAAAAAA 0 all over decorate code in some mods. They don't wanna count it out, so they make a huge block of "do nothing" states, so they'll know it's somewhere between 16-40 or whatever states down so they can just pick a number that will probably fall somewhere in that sea of AAAA's. This makes everything a huge pain in the ass and is probably the main reason why a lot of mods don't work with Zandronum. Jumping to labels is way more convenient and efficient, plus makes it much easier to follow the logic and make sense of someone else's decorate code. Those zandro fellas really need to get on the ball updating that shit.

Senor Skeletor - My bad, I actually turned the plasma sound way down while I was testing the overheat function cause it was annoying me and I forgot to put it back where it was. It's fixed now, thanks for the heads up! Glad you're enjoying it!

MA77 - Heh, yeah. When you fatality an enemy, it gives you an invisible inventory item to trigger the third person animation. When the animation finishes, it takes that item from your inventory so you go back to first person. If you start a map with said item in your inventory, you're gonna finish the animation you started. Just the system working as it should!

Ghost - Dang dude, I play on 60% damage and still die pretty often, enough that I have "resurrect" bound to its own key haha. I forget that some people are way better at Doom than me. I've toyed with the idea of making enemies drop other powerups, maybe I'll have to look into that further. I don't want to decrease the amounts of health/armor given out because that makes fatalities less worth it, but the ammo amounts are pretty high and could probably be reduced. Maybe globally reduce the chance of triggering a fatality altogether? I appreciate your input. Also, I kicked up the pistol damage a little so it should prove more useful. I'm gonna stick with the infinite ammo though, since it's supposed to act as a fist replacement. If it used ammo I'd need a new fist, making the pistol a pointless addition that no one would use when the rifle exists.
Last edited by johnny on Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:19 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Devianteist » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:07 pm

johnny wrote:Devianteist - I updated the vanilla grenades to work within Smooth Doom. This took way longer than I expected it to. Not exactly hard work, just lots of tedious copying/pasting/retyping. Still no punching and kicking, however, which I know you were excited for :( I'm working on it though I promise.


Take your time Johnny! There's no need to apologize, as I can wait. Love the SmoothDoomJ. I'll admit I was confused at first why there was a lack of melee, but I just figured it had been delayed and decided it was better to wait than nag. :D I'd also like to request the ability to use your grenade/melee code once I start working on my own mod, as it is absolutely perfect.

Cheers to an actually fun version of Brutal DOOM!
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby -Ghost- » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:22 pm

Maybe you could add frag rounds to the SSG alt-fire? Some sort of powerful AOE blast that chews through extra ammo but can help clear a room of weaker enemies, or even just knock them all over for a follow-up shot if you're low on grenades or don't have an RL yet. The fatality chance feels pretty good right now, I don't think it should go too low, otherwise you're taking a lot of risk on harder enemies for no reward. Do you have any tips for combo-ing fists/kicks? I haven't been able to really do any smooth combos aside from an occasional punch combo that doesn't really do a ton of damage. It might be good to keep the berserk pack in, just to up the damage a little more.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby johnny » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:20 pm

Devianteist - Go right ahead my friend, I'd be honored if you did. All my stuff is public domain as far as I'm concerned. I know you said you were in the early stages of learning decorate, so if you ever have any problems or questions, don't hesitate to hit me up for help. I'll be around.

Ghost - THAT is a fucking fantastic idea and I already know how I could easily implement it! Yes! Shrapnel is already a thing with grenades, I could have an altfire mode that fires a swarm of it as a powerful flak shotgun blast that can shoot through multiple enemies and consumes a grenade+shells or something. Either that, or I could clone the shrapnel code and set the damagetype to kick, so when the flak hits an enemy, it knocks them over onto their backs. Does some damage, and is also useful for when you're cornered by a group of demons and need them to back up off you. Excellent suggestion good sir, this is most definitely going in the next version.

As for comboing tips, the trick is having the right keys bound. I almost took combos out entirely because I could never pull them off with the awkward setup I had. Q and E for punch/kick is pretty crucial. If you want to do the punch then double jabs combo, press QQ like you're double clicking on something. Then you have a 9 tic window to press E for the roundhouse, which is basically an eternity. The second combo of PPP requires slightly slower Q presses but really not much slower. If the first punch sprites are still animating on the screen and you press Q, you're gonna do double jabs. Anything after leads to the haymaker, which you again have a 9 tic window for. The kicking combo is just a matter of mashing E. E for kick, Q for punch, capslock for jump, and left shift for grenade is the one true setup. QQQ, QQE, EE. Also, the hits do more damage the closer you are to the bad guy, so keep that in mind. A single combo is enough to take out any of the zombies, imps, and demons.
Last edited by johnny on Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Crudux Cruo » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:13 am

Funny, i've already started :P
Code: Select allExpand view
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=51838817822557299174


i have a preliminary sprite workup for all the frames, and have gotten them working in the game. it seems off on the color still. ill probably redo it again, but for now here's something you can plug in.

If someone has my mod i made awhile ago, In DOOMBIA2 i retooled the rott knife into a knife with swings and stabs.
I may just whip something up for you to play with, you'll have to ask around about DOOMBIA2, i dont actually have it anymore :(

Grenades... ok i see the bullet tracers coming out of it, i just thought that was there for effects; when i talk about shrapnel i mean flying pieces of metal, sorta like in WW-DIAZ. as i play through it more, i'm thinking that you might be right, the damage is good.

SO for rifle balance, i actually ended up making the firing frames 3 ticks instead of 4, and i added a burst fire function for the secondary; heres a little mini mod.
RI2GA0.png

primary fire damage is the same, but the fire is significantly faster (in line with the sound loop), but at the expense of having heavy recoil; heavy enough that it should be fired in bursts, or up close only.
Speaking of bursts, the zoom function is now a quick 3 shot burst, very accurate, with little recoil.

Also, you're welcome to do what you'd like with my mods, they're for you and others who play this mod.
Here's my up to date pack with the shotgun, rifle, and pistol tweaks.
Code: Select allExpand view
 http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=00742728697451104878


OH, and btw i love the new changes you added :)
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Devianteist » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:38 am

johnny wrote:Devianteist - Go right ahead my friend, I'd be honored if you did. All my stuff is public domain as far as I'm concerned. I know you said you were in the early stages of learning decorate, so if you ever have any problems or questions, don't hesitate to hit me up for help. I'll be around.


I appreciate the offer, and I will most certainly keep it in mind if I run into a snag. Thank you Johnny. I'm going to love playing with DECORATE, once I can test what mine will do in game (still need something to make .WAD files).
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Skrell » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:25 am

johnny wrote:Wall of responses time! Check the OP for a changelog and new downloads and holiday cheer.

Skrell - An astute observation--that is indeed NOT the default one from brutal 19, nor are any of the other weapons' sprites, save for the RL/BFG. The mod that chaingun is from is called BDJ and was made by a guy named johnny. I made it with gimp. Please don't automatically assume I'm here to steal other's work and give no credit.


I was not assuming that Johnny, just hoping that it was in some MOD i could use along with Brutal SE :) Also thank you for explaining the problem(s) with Zandro to me as i know very little about modding but always wanted to try my hand at it.
Also WHERE can i find the awesome The BDSE voxels mod ?? I'm dying to get this!!
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Devianteist » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:08 pm

So, I've finally decided to bring up a weird issue I've been having. It isn't a detriment to gameplay, but it just looks... Odd.

The blood that covers the floor after shooting an enemy keeps turning white. It looks so bizarre. I've been using a G/ZDoom 1.9 SVN/git (whatever they're called) build and G/ZDoom's latest stable 1.8 release. They both exhibit this issue even after starting with a new INI file.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Zeyl » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:54 pm

Your mod is a Masterpiece bro (Y)
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby johnny » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:32 pm

Skrell - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=45526 You made the most recent post in this thread bro... you have to read the OPs. Aspengers and tourettes.

Devianteist - http://slade.mancubus.net/ this is the cream of the crop as far as wad editors go, definitely get slade! Are you using any brightmaps? I used the ones bundled with BDSE or BDv19 at one point, I can't remember, and it made all blood and projectiles and stuff white inside of black boxes. Apparently you need to load them before you load brutal doom, or not use them at all. (or use Sbrightmaps!) If not... I dunno man, that's weird. Maybe upgrade to the gzdoom 2.1 svn? It's actually noticably faster than 1.9, so this is a good idea regardless.

Zeyl - Thanks dude, really. I've never released anything before and it honestly feels awesome to know there are people who appreciate all the time I've wasted on this.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Devianteist » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:58 pm

johnny wrote:Devianteist - http://slade.mancubus.net/ this is the cream of the crop as far as wad editors go, definitely get slade! Are you using any brightmaps? I used the ones bundled with BDSE or BDv19 at one point, I can't remember, and it made all blood and projectiles and stuff white inside of black boxes. Apparently you need to load them before you load brutal doom, or not use them at all. (or use Sbrightmaps!) If not... I dunno man, that's weird. Maybe upgrade to the gzdoom 2.1 svn? It's actually noticably faster than 1.9, so this is a good idea regardless.


I have tried using Sbrightmaps, and it didn't change. You said I should load it before BDJ? I'll give that a try. It is rather confusing. As for (G)ZDoom 2.x, my computer refuses to allow any of those versions to open, as I lack the proper software/hardware. It's odd, as I did not have this problem with other versions of Brutal DOOM.

It could just be my computer, being uselessly problematic again. :blergh: I'm due for an upgrade.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Skrell » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:15 pm

johnny wrote:Skrell - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=45526 You made the most recent post in this thread bro... you have to read the OPs. Aspengers and tourettes.
.


OMG how did i miss that!! :shock: Thank you for pointing it out!
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby johnny » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:36 pm

Devianteist - I had the exact same problem with 2.1. My laptop is ancient. Something to do with me not having the right opengl shaders which can only be fixed by buying a new pc. However, the newer NEWER 2.1 (Dec 01) works for me again, thank god.
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Re: <!> Grenades & melee attacking in Brutal & Vanilla Doom

Postby Devianteist » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:49 pm

Technology; so wonderful, so infuriating. Alas, it is only as smart as the person using it. :violin:
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