[Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby m4lmaster » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:41 pm

oh. should have added this earlier. if i use this with ketchup mod, loading ketchup first, if it runs, i dont get any exp nor do i get the enemy health bar
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby SallazarSpellcaster » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:03 pm

-Ghost- wrote:While playing Doom WADs I've noticed that enemy projectiles like Imp fireballs, Baron/Knight plasma, Ararchnaton plasma, etc seem to block your own projectiles. So when I'm using the cleric's staff to try and hit them the wave of projectiles coming at me blocks all my shots.



I have found this issue as well, in Hexen.

It appears that deflectable projectiles became "solid" altogether. I mean for example, if the character is being pelted by fireballs from a Chaos Serpent and he tries to run through them for a barrage of melee attacks, he can't; it is as if there was something ahead of him blocking the path, and of course, that only happens when faced against a projectile.

On difficulty 4 that's not a huge issue, but on difficulty 5 it becomes problematic, as enemies pelt you with projectiles.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby CrazyEyes » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:20 am

ArchXeno wrote:The Mage's blue wand secondary is extremely powerful. Getting heals whenever you want, as well as having a convenient way to kill at meele range does not feel very balanced.

Other than that, this is a really great wad. Hexen is finally fun (for me at least).

Depends on the WAD you play. On Hexen I would suggest turning up the difficulty level (I usually play on #4; might even go 5 at some point). On Doom you'll find it hard to approach enemies to get "free heals" without getting destroyed as a mage. The drain isn't a very sustainable melee attack because it prevents you from maneuvering when you fire it and has a long animation; it is meant to help keep the mage's health up if he thinks it's safe to approach an enemy. The life drain isn't really overpowered because it's incredibly easy to die as a mage even from full life. In short, I suggest playing on a higher difficulty. If you want to see real sustain, you should try the Serpent Staff life drain.

m4lmaster wrote:any way to fix this or to get more blood in the mod itself?

The only way to fix this is to go in the archives yourself and eliminate conflicts, like I did to create this combo PK3 in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't really care for gratuitous amounts of gore; WoC gore is on my upper limit of acceptable gore.

-Ghost- wrote:While playing Doom WADs I've noticed that enemy projectiles like Imp fireballs, Baron/Knight plasma, Ararchnaton plasma, etc seem to block your own projectiles. So when I'm using the cleric's staff to try and hit them the wave of projectiles coming at me blocks all my shots.

That was an oversight on my part. I can fix that relatively easily.

SallazarSpellcaster wrote:It appears that deflectable projectiles became "solid" altogether. I mean for example, if the character is being pelted by fireballs from a Chaos Serpent and he tries to run through them for a barrage of melee attacks, he can't; it is as if there was something ahead of him blocking the path, and of course, that only happens when faced against a projectile.

That is correct. That is because due to the limitations (which, in my opinion, are completely arbitrarily placed) on ZDoom's line-of-sight pointers and state changers, I can only make the projectiles react the way they do by making them solid. Which I didn't think was such a big deal gameplay-wise; I don't usually run straight at monsters through a storm of projectiles. Then again, I don't play on difficulty 5 either. I will see if I can come up with a workaround for it. You can use suspense-of-disbelief to imagine it as a "pain" reaction if you'd like.

By the way, I'm not sure how active ZDoom development is, but anyone developing ZDoom should consider making anything that is a "flag combo" (Projectile, monster) into a class that everything else with that flag combo inherits from. It kind of sucks ass to add flags to every single projectile because they don't inherit from a single parent. On top of that, you are stuck with the knowledge that any new projectiles from monsters you couldn't account for won't obey your rules.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby Crudux Cruo » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:30 pm

Ok, so i absolutely love this mod, but now that the hexersize stuff is intergrated with the woc, it makes the others seem boring :(

- vorpal blade is ok, but... it could be more hexercize-y
- the shield bash sucks, i'd rather it be a short blocking animation.
- the mage's wand secondary... it works but the sprites...
- all other classes are exactly the same. damn.

if there is any way to team up with lloyd to hexercize ALL of WOC, that would be the tits, but that is more than a little work. at the very least, i would like to see all fighter, cleric, and mage weapons hexercized, if possible.

edit:
If you need any help with sprite edits, i would be more than happy to help any way i can. any coding stuff i am a full at, but i do decent sprite work.
Last edited by Crudux Cruo on Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby acidhoez » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:42 pm

^ yes please
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby SallazarSpellcaster » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:39 pm

Crudux Cruo wrote:
if there is any way to team up with lloyd to hexercize ALL of WOC, that would be the tits, but that is more than a little work. at the very least, i would like to see all fighter, cleric, and mage weapons hexercized, if possible.


That would be very awesome. In my opinion, the two new weapons for Cleric, Fighter and Mage would need the Hexercize treatment. The Hunter I believe doesn't need hexercizing though, in my opinion he already feels fitting in style; I mean, take his machete for example, the combo system and animations feel really fluid and make him a unique character at that, as for the weapons, they're mostly ranged, so hexercizing them may be difficult. Perhaps sprite smoothing or something like that.

As for the Necromancer, that one is also rather difficult to Hexercize, I think. I mean, you could add different weapons or animations to make him more fitting with Hexercize, or modify the behavior of some of his weapons.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby Thetis » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:50 pm

I got a few ways to hexercise all the other weapons.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby CrazyEyes » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:33 pm

Thetis wrote:I got a few ways to hexercise all the other weapons.

Do you plan on changing your custom weapons in that manner in the next update? If so, goddamn Zandronum, hurry up.

If not, then...
Crudox Cruo wrote:edit:
If you need any help with sprite edits, i would be more than happy to help any way i can. any coding stuff i am a full at, but i do decent sprite work.

I would need your help. I love programming and I like to think I am good at it (I maintain that the shitty behavior of the projectiles is not my fault -- heh). I'd be happy to change the other WoC weapons but I find drawing sprites quite tedious. I plan on waiting until Thetis's update and then seeing what I like or don't like.

SallazarSpellcaster wrote:As for the Necromancer, that one is also rather difficult to Hexercize, I think. I mean, you could add different weapons or animations to make him more fitting with Hexercize, or modify the behavior of some of his weapons.

A class based on black magic; fouling the very essence of being. Difficult to HeXercize. Yeah, right. I'd have a few ideas. Keep in mind the idea of that mod was to make Hexen live up to the heavy metal album cover its art style so resembled.

Crudox Cruo wrote:- vorpal blade is ok, but... it could be more hexercize-y

Heh, every time I think about changing the Vorpal Blade, I think of D&D, in which it has a chance of decapitating an enemy with every strike. Obviously, that might be a bit much; maybe on enemies below a certain tier. The sword comes from Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky," for those unaware, which is a poem contained in "Through the Looking Glass" (aka the sequel to "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland"). In it, the blade goes "snicker-snack," and takes off the Jabberwocky's head instantly, the wielder merrily frolicking back. I relay this information because I wish to explain my thoughts on the weapon (not to sound condescending by posting esoteric knowledge); it should have a "cutting" theme to it. Obviously, swords cut, but this magical sword would have the power to cut through almost anything in a quick strike. Firing a wide ranged slice that rips is a good start, but the damage is pretty sad, in my opinion (even without heXercise, I was never fond of it in WoC). I have also considered replacing it entirely, such as in Brutal HeXen, although the Thunder Crossbow is inaccurate (even with the accuracy perk you get later) and the damage suffers. Maybe javelins? Or a spear, which would allow you to hit enemies at a longer melee range (and possibly shoots bolts of fire or something). I feel that the Fighter should be portrayed as a master of all arms, and that his arsenal isn't varied enough.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby SallazarSpellcaster » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:57 pm

CrazyEyes wrote:A class based on black magic; fouling the very essence of being. Difficult to HeXercize. Yeah, right. I'd have a few ideas. Keep in mind the idea of that mod was to make Hexen live up to the heavy metal album cover its art style so resembled.


Well, putting it that way, I stand corrected. That sounds bloody awesome.


I feel that the Fighter should be portrayed as a master of all arms, and that his arsenal isn't varied enough.


The feel of the Fighter could change entirely in that case, in a way it already has. With the Hexercise additions, he has become much more melee oriented, especially with the axe+hammer combo and the increased influence of strength. Also, his weapons became less "magic," I mean, the axe lost its ranged attack, and the axe and hammer combo is also more physical than anything; following that, the rest of his weapons could become more physical with a dash of magic, rather than magic altogether, similar to his "stats" on the character select screen. That way, javelins would work well for long ranged warfare, and the Dragon Claw could be switched with the Iron Crossbow that's somewhere around, though that runs the risk of feeling repetitive what with the Hunter being all about those weapons.

On keeping with the dual wielding abilities, maybe other weapons could be made to be dual-wieldable? The Vorpal Sword for example, I mean, as a way to make further use of the various weapon masteries; the axe and hammer as an example example benefits from well, axe and hammer masteries, so being able to dual wield the Vorpal sword and the hammer, or the axe, would allow the player to use any combination of masteries.

As for the sword itself, perhaps it could have a combo system similar to the hunter's machete, or eh... "weight" like the Cleric's mace. Except being more powerful and more vicious, and making a noise of flesh-rending; think the sound the Fiend in the original Quake makes when it attacks you, as if your flesh was torn away in bloody chunks; and have it spawn droplets of blood when it hits. I think that may give it that magic-cutting-sword feel.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby CrazyEyes » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:52 pm

SallazarSpellcaster wrote:
The feel of the Fighter could change entirely in that case, in a way it already has. With the Hexercise additions, he has become much more melee oriented, especially with the axe+hammer combo and the increased influence of strength. Also, his weapons became less "magic," I mean, the axe lost its ranged attack, and the axe and hammer combo is also more physical than anything; following that, the rest of his weapons could become more physical with a dash of magic, rather than magic altogether, similar to his "stats" on the character select screen. That way, javelins would work well for long ranged warfare, and the Dragon Claw could be switched with the Iron Crossbow that's somewhere around, though that runs the risk of feeling repetitive what with the Hunter being all about those weapons.

On keeping with the dual wielding abilities, maybe other weapons could be made to be dual-wieldable? The Vorpal Sword for example, I mean, as a way to make further use of the various weapon masteries; the axe and hammer as an example example benefits from well, axe and hammer masteries, so being able to dual wield the Vorpal sword and the hammer, or the axe, would allow the player to use any combination of masteries.

As for the sword itself, perhaps it could have a combo system similar to the hunter's machete, or eh... "weight" like the Cleric's mace. Except being more powerful and more vicious, and making a noise of flesh-rending; think the sound the Fiend in the original Quake makes when it attacks you, as if your flesh was torn away in bloody chunks; and have it spawn droplets of blood when it hits. I think that may give it that magic-cutting-sword feel.


Hmm, masteries. I forgot to think about that, for some reason. I think it's fair to have one of the weapons in the Fighter's arsenal be not-mastery related, but give him some other benefit. The spear for instance; I might keep the Vorpal Sword and replace the Dragon Claw with that weapon. It would give you an advantage in both melee range and have a ranged attack, but it would only scale with your strength, thus making it poorer at dealing actual damage but safer for your benefit. A good weapon for taking it slow and picking off enemies.

Also, I just came up with a pretty good way to change the Vorpal Sword; wide melee-range cleave. The attacks would be slower than Timon's Axe but hit everything in melee range in front of you. This would have a different style of play to the fast-paced in-and-out smashing with the Timon's Axe and gauntlet; you could stand in the midst of your enemies, destroying them several at a time. It would burn mana faster though. This seems like the best way for me to implement it so far.

As for additional dual-wielding options, I think it would be quite amusing to be able to wield both the Vorpal Sword and the Hammer of Retribution; another combined mana weapon, in essence, the Vorpal Sword annihilating enemies at close range and the Hammer giving you a ranged attack at the same time. Would it be "overpowered?" Maybe. I'd have to test it. I think having options is supposed to be one of the Fighter's strong suits, since he is nearly mana-less.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby -Ghost- » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:43 pm

A wide cleave attack sounds great for the Vorpal blade, it would be a nice way to get through a crowd of weak enemies quickly. A spear that you can throw/melee with would also be a good replacement for the Dragon Claw, though the Iron Crossbow would be fine too. I also view him as more of a master at arms character, so I think he'd be good with a lot of different weapon types, including basic ranged ones.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby Crudux Cruo » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:03 am

To elaborate on what I was alluding to earlier, "Hexerciz-ing" the classes would involve making them feel more frenetic, and arcadey: weapons would have energetic animations, fast attacks, and COMBOS to boot. mages could dual wield electricity and frost magic to create lightning storms or whatnot, the cleric's flail can be backed up with a fist full of flame, and other such stuff to give the game a cool Skyrim/Hexercize feel too it which this mod you're doing essentially brings out. If, however, new effects and whatnot were done, make a resource thread of all you'd need, and I and others like me can go off a list of things to do.
Also, I think it's pretty sweet that Thetis is in on this too, this can make for some very interesting new developments... on that note, thanks for WOC, i love it even without hexercize! but boy does it look so sexy with this mod!

ps

I read Alice in wonderland and through the looking glass (thanks liturature.org) and... boy was that good old boy pumped full with opiates!
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby Triple S » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:45 pm

CrazyEyes wrote:I think having options is supposed to be one of the Fighter's strong suits, since he is nearly mana-less.



Mm, I always felt that was the Cleric's role. He always has options, as he can do everything pretty decently. Fighter should be quite limited in ranged options, but be able to do just about anything if he gets close, while Mage has very limited and risky close-range ability (plus, sneezing on him sends him to the ER) but is capable of the most damage ever once he gets his spells going from mid-range and further. Cleric isn't as capable at close range as the Fighter but he can still hit pretty hard and has great sustain to make up for not having high defense and HP, and compared to the Mage his ranged/magic abilties might be lacking but he is definitely no pushover.

The other two classes (Necromancer and Hunter) are kind of variants on existing class roles, so to speak. Hunter is decently capable at all ranges and has varying magic abilities (like Cleric), and Necromancer is squishy like the Mage but has great magic... though his power may come more from his minions than himself, depending on how you play him.

Crudux Cruo wrote:Skyrim


Yeah but Skyrim's combat is ass compared to this. [/canofworms]


EDIT: Probably already mentioned, but I was playing Cleric and I noticed that the shield bash sometimes won't reflect projectiles right. Sometimes they'll go off into the sky for some reason, but most of the time when it fails to work right the projectile will pass through you harmlessly then become solid behind you... preventing you from backpedaling for a second. This is really, really bad. Shield Bash in general seems odd... most of the time it doesn't push enemies at all but sometimes it'll work. Also, projectiles block projectiles, meaning a single Hell Knight shot can completely shut down a Serpent Staff wielding Cleric if he doesn't have the room to circle-strafe. Honestly making the projectiles solid seems to cause more problems than it fixes. Projectiles with a slow death animation can block your movement entirely.
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby ArchXeno » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:34 pm

Yea, enemy projectiles are a bit wonky. Arc of Death shots stick to them,and they even bleed. Another incident was when I got frozen in place mid-Hammer of Retribution jump by imps(difficulty 5)
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Re: [Released] Wrath of Cronos with heXercise

Postby SallazarSpellcaster » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:47 pm

I have made a playthrough as the Mage, and I would like to suggest something regarding his third weapon.

The secondary attack of the Arc of Death feels quite underpowered compared to Essence Drain. Seeing as the wand's attack scales with intellect, and also absorbs health, it makes using the melee lightning attack pointless; using the wand's secondary kills an ettin commander in less than a second, doesn't cost mana and heals you, whereas Arc of Death's lightning takes about 2 seconds and drains quite a bit of mana. And while Arc of Death allows you to move around when using its melee form, the mana cost trumps the benefit of mobility.

To counter that, perhaps it might be worth noticing the weapon's secondary as it appears on the mod Carnage Galore?

If you haven't seen that secondary, please allow me to describe it: It behaves like the Sphere of Annihilation spell from Heretic 2; the Arc of Death fires a ball of lightning that explodes over a medium sized area, and deals heavy damage. It is balanced by costing 10 mana instead of the usual 5 and does only a bit more damage than two Arc shots. And well, personally, I find the effect of the sphere explosion to be pretty cool, plus I think it fits in quite nicely with Hexercise's more franctic combat and bigger spells. If you'd like to see the effect in action, I'd recommend getting Carnage Galore yourself, it's a pretty good mod; or there's a playthrough on it on YouTube.

And if you would like to keep the Hexercise attack, then please consider making it more powerful so it becomes a viable option for those times when the mage is in a pinch.
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