[WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Marrub » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:25 pm

Make the enemy fire one bullet that has infinite range and low accuracy that has a visible puff, have several others with incrementing accuracy and decrementing range that have invisible puffs.
Funfunfun
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Captain J » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:55 pm

he is right, weaker enemies also powerful SSG is highly recommanded.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Woolie Wool » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:10 pm

I came up with an idea--enemies will shoot at where you were when they started aiming rather than where you are. This will give you about 1/3 of a second to get out of the way, similar to Quake II.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Matt » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:48 pm

Was in the original Quake as well.

How do you even do this with hitscans in ZDoom?
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Untitled » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm

Vaecrius wrote:Was in the original Quake as well.

How do you even do this with hitscans in ZDoom?


Doesn't pop up as much in quake 1, due to the lack of hitscanners there (there was basically the grunt. That was it).

I dunno how one does this with hitscans in ZDoom.

The thing with mutiny, is that almost no matter what you do, you're gonna get sucker punched in one of two fashions:

A: You run out of ammo.
That's the thing with the mancubi replacements. Why do they have so much more health than the everything else replacements? Why am I having ammo issues trying to be MAP07 of Doom II? The imp replacements aren't much better. Why do they have so much health? I'm running out of ammo constantly because imps are, you know, the most common enemy of doom.
On the other side of things, the higher tier replacements (mancubi aside) start becoming easier, as rocket marines can be freaking dodged (the ability to dodge things makes things so much easier it's not funny), and they have less health than their initial counterparts!
Why do health values fluctuate so much between enemies? Where's the balance in all of this?!

B: You run into a trap. You know, a teleporter trap. Or one of the infamous "lock you in the room" traps. And suddenly, you're completely screwed! Traps are a huge part of Modern Doom map design. In a trap, you can't position yourself; you're exactly where the map maker wants you to be when you activate it.
This is why I ask that imp replacements not be hitscan. Because they're so commonly used that "oh, did a door with 2 dozen of them open up?" is a common thing, and 2 dozen hitscanners that don't infight really ruins your run.

Basically, when it comes down to it, hitscanners are simply overpowered in the Doom modern map-making scene.

I present three options to make this more bearable:
Either A: Reenable infighting. Infighting was a large part of doom maps. Heck, many mapsets I still play utilize it in killing most of the monsters. I understand the flavor that mutiny has, it's just the gameplay is suffering too much from this.
B: Friendly fire. This is what stronghold has (stronghold has no infighting, but it's gameplay justified there), hitscanners, while they don't infight, still can kill each other. Given mutiny's flavor, this totally works, and it means that encountering a 5x5 group of imps is now bearable since 20 of them are going to die in crossfire, as long as you have enough health.
C: Damage Dropoff. This is what wolfenstein used. To sum up what it is and why it's so great:
TerminusEst13 wrote:See, the way Wolfenstein did damage wasn’t just “get shot, get hit, take damage”, the bullets were made out of bullshittium and were affected by distance. The farther the distance the target was, the lower their damage and hitchance. If you stand right next to a Nazi, you’re going to get shredded because his bullets will all hit and they will all do oh-my-car levels of damage. If you stand on the other end of the hallway, the bullets not only will rarely hit you but even if they do you’re looking at maybe a fraction of damage.

D: I'm not sure what reaction times are like but if they aren't slow they need to be:
TerminusEst13 wrote:[...]there was often plenty of room to distance yourself so that you could “avoid” Nazi fire while returning it. Even if you opened up a door and saw a Nazi right there, there was always time to open fire right away and drill them rather than getting shredded for half your life.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby TheRailgunner » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:49 am

Vaecrius wrote:Was in the original Quake as well.

How do you even do this with hitscans in ZDoom?


Try adding a stateless frame between the initial "A_FaceTarget" state and the attack state - short enough to require good timing to avoid, but just long enough for it to be exploitable:

Code: Select allExpand view
POSS E 6 A_FaceTarget
POSS E 6 //Intermediate frame where the enemy doesn't face you, giving you six tics to avoid the hitscan attack
POSS F 6 //Attack state goes here.


I haven't had time to test this (I'm going to sleep after I post this), but I think it should work (it is also possible that it'll still shoot at your current location, but the enemy won't appear to be facing you).
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Gez » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:29 am

A_FaceTarget is really only useful for the graphic effect of seeing the monster face its target. It has no influence at all on where the monster is aiming.

Also, all monster attack functions (except A_BruisAttack) automatically call A_FaceTarget anyway. The exception for A_BruisAttack allows to demonstrate that A_FaceTarget has no relevance on monster aim: you can sometimes see a Baron or Hell Knight shoot a fireball to its side or even in its back.


Only way I can see of having a monster shoot a hitscan at a position where you might no longer be is through ACS, notably by using the LineAttack function which is the only one we have to send hitscan to arbitrary points. Another possibility involves spawning a dummy target actor at the target's position and then attack that dummy actor.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Matt » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:28 pm

To be more specific:
Code: Select allExpand view
POSS E 6 A_FaceTarget(0,0)
POSS E 6 //Intermediate frame where the enemy doesn't face you, giving you six tics to avoid the hitscan attack
POSS F 6 //Attack state goes here.
works if "Attack state" is A_CustomMissile with the CMF_AIMDIRECTION flag EDIT: And the (0,0) specified this is important.

However--

...actually, now that I actually bother to look up A_CustomBulletAttack on the wiki it seems that the CBAF_AIMDIRECTION flag ought to do the same thing :shock:

anyone tested this?
EDIT: Horizontal aiming works as it ought, but there's no vertical aiming at all. Adding CBAF_EXPLICITANGLE and adding "-pitch" as the vertical spread seems to overcompensate. Not sure how to fix this.
EDIT: CBAF_AIMFACING|CBAF_EXPLICITANGLE|CBAF_NOPITCH for flags and -pitch for vert. spread should do the trick.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Woolie Wool » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:37 pm

TheRailgunner wrote:
Vaecrius wrote:Was in the original Quake as well.

How do you even do this with hitscans in ZDoom?


Try adding a stateless frame between the initial "A_FaceTarget" state and the attack state - short enough to require good timing to avoid, but just long enough for it to be exploitable:

Code: Select allExpand view
POSS E 6 A_FaceTarget
POSS E 6 //Intermediate frame where the enemy doesn't face you, giving you six tics to avoid the hitscan attack
POSS F 6 //Attack state goes here.


I haven't had time to test this (I'm going to sleep after I post this), but I think it should work (it is also possible that it'll still shoot at your current location, but the enemy won't appear to be facing you).

You also need CBAF_AIMFACING.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Woolie Wool » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:46 pm

Untitled wrote:That's the thing with the mancubi replacements. Why do they have so much more health than the everything else replacements? Why am I having ammo issues trying to be MAP07 of Doom II? The imp replacements aren't much better. Why do they have so much health? I'm running out of ammo constantly because imps are, you know, the most common enemy of doom.

You're not hitting them. They have only 60 HP, no more than an imp has. BTW, use the randomizer, it has been there since 2.0 for a reason. Many of the officers will be replaced by shotgun/PDW marines, as well as another officer variant using the regular pistol, whose attacks are no more powerful than a zombieman's.

On the other side of things, the higher tier replacements (mancubi aside) start becoming easier, as rocket marines can be freaking dodged (the ability to dodge things makes things so much easier it's not funny), and they have less health than their initial counterparts!
Why do health values fluctuate so much between enemies? Where's the balance in all of this?!

Humans are squishy (the rocket guy has around 150 HP IIRC, much more than officers). Robots are not. However, the higher-tier human marines have absolutely devastating attacks, which make up for having less damage. A rocket marine does about one hundred damage with a direct hit and his rockets have a splash radius just as large as the player's rockets (even if the damage is lower). Grenade launcher marines are unpredictable and extremely dangerous in close quarters. Railgun marines have deadly hitscan attacks that are compensated for by their long charge-up. As for other middleweight monster replacements, the plasma marines and elites can kill you very, very quickly if you're not prepared for them.

I'm sticking with my idea of hitscanners firing 10 tics behind you. Moving to "tracer" projectiles would remove the feeling of being a perspective flip of Doom and turn into something more like ww-nazis. If I weren't making Zandronum compatibility a priority I would also make marines avoid shooting if there's another enemy blocking their line of fire.

Also, use shadow armor when you need it. It will save your life.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Untitled » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:13 pm

Woolie Wool wrote:If I weren't making Zandronum compatibility a priority


Zandronum lacks the CBAF_AIMFACING|CBAF_EXPLICITANGLE|CBAF_NOPITCH flags, so that's already straight out.

welp

With the stronger tier enemies doing more damage: The more damage only matter if they f***ing hit you. Rocket marines, as devastating as they are, are easy to dodge, and drop ammo when they do. The issue is that the monster tiers don't scale up well in comparison to their original counterparts; imps are a lot worse than their original counterparts; viles a ton easier.

The other issue is that say a map throws about 500 monsters over the course of a long level. The problem is, they're hitscan. No matter how good you are, they are always going to get a shot or two in. You can be the best player ever, you will slowly, slowly, slowly be whittled down until you die. Massive amounts of hitscanners will always win, even if by attrition. Slow, painful, death.

Also, you never replied to my issue of the fact this wad is making a freaking Doom IWAD impossible. TNT Evilution is an IWAD, the basics, so to speak. Why am I having a problem there? I literally just walk into an open field an I'm doomed. Open combat makes like half of modern doom wads!

Also, you never answered how the hell I survive traps. Traps are a huge part of modern doom gameplay; you know, ones that close the room off, or traps that open a closet of three dozen enemies who are now all hitscan, and suddenly, you begin a process of tedious save-die-reload.

The berserk not healing back to 100 needs to fixed; a lot of modern maps place berserks for the sole purpose of the 100-health refill, especially in a mod like this where fists are useless since melee vs. hitscan

Also, you still (holy crap I'm abusing italics) never explained why you made the SSG so utterly useless. It fires so slowly, and only does 140 damage a shot. Damn.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, this mod really seems to be made for strife. Strife embodies a lot of the mechanics that you see in Mutiny. You should play strife, if you know where you can get it (I don't).
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Woolie Wool » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:57 pm

CBAF_AIMFACING is the only flag needed and Zandronum has it. I've already tested it. Also if it's 500+ monsters, it's probably a slaughter map, I don't play slaughter maps, I don't support slaughter maps, I don't give a flying pig's ass about slaughter maps and I don't want to hear about slaughter maps. All right? Good. As for Evilution, I wouldn't know, because I hate Evilution to death. Try Darkening 2, that's a wad I tested with Mutiny extensively. Suspended in Dusk, the original Epic (NOT Epic 2!), and Back to Basics work as well.

Also learn to stunlock. Seriously. If you drill a dude with the PDW, he can't shoot back. And with the assault rifle you can mow down droves of enemies without giving them much of a chance to retaliate. And I nerfed the SSG so it's not an instant "kill enemy" button against every single human opponent in the mod.

As for Strife, it's such a monstrous pain in the ass to mod due to its scripts and quirks that I'm not inclined to ever make a Strife weapon mod.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby -Ghost- » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:11 am

I buffed the armor damage reduction values a little and boosted health/armor potions to give +2 HP and +3 armor respectively and I've been having an easier time of things. Tough enemies still go through your health and armor fast, but the basic ones don't whittle you down quite as easily since most maps supply plenty of the HP/armor bonuses. It doesn't get rid of the fundamental hitscanner issue, but it helps.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Matt » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:20 am

How'd you manage to get it to work with CBAF_AIMFACING alone? When I tried it it would be perfectly on target if you didn't try to dodge, but if you got out of the way between A_FaceTarget and A_CustomBulletAttack it would appear to forget about vertical aiming or shoot into the sky or something.
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Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Untitled » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:05 am

The main issue with the nerfed SSG is that the many, many, many map designs are based around the SSG, and expect that to be the exact power curve.

The SSG isn't needed per say, but the problem is that power gap is still there. Taking on, say, 7 mancubi with a shotgun is considered unreasonable. 8 mancubi with a SSG? Perfectly fine.
I've noticed that a lot of wads will weaken a character's shotgunning power, but give-him an SSG-class chaingun to keep up. If you plan to keep the SSG this useless, please give the player a weapon that can fill the power gap, to deal with those relentless Mancubi replacements, or to shutdown the Arachnotron replacements quickly. Maybe buff the PDW or something.

Here, play MAP07 of Doom 2. As in, the original, basic map 7. See where instead of taking about 50 shells to clear all 7, it now takes 100 shells, because of the hp increase and because of the ssg decrease.

That's the problem with the power curve. You've weakened the SSG to the point where it's no better than the shotgun, (I've checked, it literally fires twice as slowly, and only does double damage), and given us no weapon to fill the power gap which most doom maps are built around.

For the "probably a slaughter map" let me rephrase it: say the map is really long, with many intense fights. The thing with doom is, you can dodge. Railgunners get a special notion of "ohmygodstopthis" for having perfect accuracy. The problem is, no matter how good you are, a few hitscanners will always get a hit in on you. Over the course of a huge, huge, huge map, they will slowly, sloooooooowly whittle you health down to zero simply because you can't dodge them.

Not being balanced for slaughter wads is something I've ran into with quite a few mods; so you have a point there, I guess.

The issue I'd say is that you at some point begin sacrificing the gameplay that makes doom so amazing for the flavor of the mod. And I really can't deny that the flavor of the wad really is amazing. But things like making the imps hitscan, or removing monster infighting starts to really grate on one's nerves, even if it does fit mutiny. I really want my monster infighting back, please, I actually rely on it on a regular basis.

Also, when testing mods, please test a variety of different map styles first. Going through the boom-style Cacoward winners is a nice place to start. Requiem and Hell revealed, Uac Ultra and Speed of Doom, the Eternal Doom series (though only IV won a cacoward), the Community Chest series (of which 2, 3, and 4 won cacowards)...

About Strife: Actually, I was just using strife as comparison, in terms of gameplay fundamentals, since strife was also "lol hitscanners are fair right?". I never expect anyone to mod for strife, and I sure as hell wouldn't, because dumb native strife stuff (ok, I'm also a terrible mod-maker myself, but strife is a special no-no).

Last but not least, you still haven't answered how you survive one of those ambush traps. You can't position yourself with these; these are designed to be straight up dodge-like-a-maniac fights. Traps make up a huge part of modern map design, and especially now that people are smarter with it, traps that lock the player in the room are especially popular. How do I survive any of these? How do I survive if a closet of 24 imps opening up when all of them are now hitscan, and they don't infight, and some bars lock behind me to prevent me from leaving?
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