MaxRideWizardLord wrote:Jenkins, look at the new trailer of Guncaster. They introduced new "OP" suit that it seems spawns instead of bfg that have nice attacks build in and very slowly regenerate hp. The fire modes are not as powerful as old dreadful, but it's bfg replacement so you can hope it stays in your inventory for good and you can use it anytime you want and you it still saves in your backpack after changing the map just like in demonsteel.
Oh... I didn't noticed it. As long as this suit stays for good once you pick it up, that means you can actually avoid medkits and no longer be dependent on them, and the game would be more forgiving for using TNT as for the "rocket jumps"! Let’s hope it works just as good as in Demonsteele.
Zhs2 wrote:Jenkins95 wrote:I wish it was true, but then there are those immunity and resistances that some enemies still do have, at least against magic. So if you truly love certain, even one of the beginners one, the chances are that even not so hard enemies will get full immune against it or way too strong resistance, so the fighting won't be any fun, if even possible.
I dunno man, it's like trying to make a case against people Mike Tyson'ing (fist only) in vanilla Doom or poking everything to death with the staff in Heretic, and there are people crazy like that. At least the Iron Lich isn't completely immune to crows anymore due to a little mixup that's been since fixed, and I can't think of any other true immunities. (Wendigo vs. ice?)
At least “Mike Tyson’ing” method does work, and there is no enemy that is resistant against the mighty fists of Doomguy; I myself beat half-life 1 by using crowbar and hivehand only. There is more than just Wendigo vs ice. At least I’ve noticed that a lot of enemies have immunity or just massive resistances against the ground fire effect of Skullfire spell so far as I have tested, and that’s pretty much why anyone would use it over the Gumpop spell. Also, I feel like some enemies have high resistance against Chillgrasp as well, as far as I have tested. As for Wendigo once grabbed with Chillgrasp, I’d like that I could just charge him up even more and throw against wall or into enemies creating even bigger explosion but it took more time to charge rather than just kill him, after all it’s classic telekinesis powered with deep freeze magic ability. It’s one of my personal favorite spells as well, would be lovely to beat whole HeXen only using this thing.
DoomKrakken wrote:I still like the idea of magic being a support piece. It's still whoppingly powerful for being support... and where it is right now, though it could probably use a little improvement, it really doesn't need that much tweaking.
I sincerely don’t like the idea of magic just taking place of a “support” feature of the mod. I know, there been games that introduce specific powers that can be used as offense purpose, just like above mentioned Bioshock 2, and yet they all serve merely as support where the weapons been the main damage source and just persist as things that kill other things. I hope this mod has a little different mindset about it considering that even PillowBlaster said that “magic is not a support thing as a whole” (actual quotes from PillowBlaster), “It generally plays an equally important role for me. I am not apathetic to magic nor favorizing guns”, so it become clear that he value Magic just like he values Weapons.
In fact, to balance it out, and even make things fair, I suggested giving syringe from Killing Floor so some of the “weapons” can be used as support element too. Would be lovely if Cauterizer gets an Stratocaster upgrade part that would shock everyone around and stun them for a short time, or even make them take extra damage from magic attacks, so it could be sort of “support” element too, since all other Stratocaster upgrades are already overkill enough. So yes, I wish magic were as powerful as guns are, as the excuse that guns can’t be used for support can’t really apply here.
MaxRideWizardLord wrote:I'd even go as far and say that pulverizer feels a bit weak, for assault cannon that does that shots too many bullets it doesn't kill as fast, but that is my opinion. I'm not the guy who demands nerfs in PB's mods.
Dude… Really?? I beat Hell Revealed 2 using mostly the Pulverizer, I didn’t even bother using it’s alternative mode as primary mode was just good enough, it killed light enemies as fast and easy as it stun and damage boss-tier enemies, you don’t even need dual wield to stun cyberdemon and kill him within around 5 seconds on Dragon difficulty, and there is plenty ammo for it to ever run out. I don't mean to be nipicking, but how does that feel “a bit weak”?? With Gunzerker, I just become a flying Rambo, and if you play on classic Ultra Violence difficulty (Wyrm), poor Cyberdemons couldn’t even shoot at least once as they get painlocked. Only because one hit doesn’t do as much damage as vanilla pistol or chaingun do, doesn’t mean it’s weak even in ammo-to-damage scale.
DoomKrakken wrote:The only reason he uses magic is because it's useful... this would imply that, while not as good as the guns, they do provide other advantages... things that guns can't do:
- Scourgebreath can go through walls.
- The Meteorfist can enable you to practically fly.
- Corpseblast severely damages unlucky schmucks that come close to a corpse... and they eliminate corpses so that Arch-Viles cannot resurrect them.
- Hitchcock's Birds stunlocks Cyberdemons after three successful launches until it dies.
- Gumpop increases damage dealt by your weapons and prevents Arch-Viles from resurrecting monsters killed by Gumpop.
- Chillgrasp grabs people even from behind bars and turns people into ice-sculptures, stun-locking them as it happens. Thereby preventing Arch-Viles from resurrecting them.
- Frostbite turns people immediately people it freezes into ice shards. Thereby preventing Arch-Viles from resurrecting them.
- Sheepshield blocks stuff and goes through walls, exploding when they come into contact with people when released.
1) Charged fire of Old Dreadful not just goes through walls, but pretty much cleans whole map out of enemies, be that even 100 square meters wall. The spell itself is not that useful unless you really want to have some fun and play more suicidal since the range is too small, recoil is too big, wastes too much mana and doesn’t work up close. Although I admit, I quite like that feature of Scourgebreath, but yet it still has an unpleasant bug and just doesn’t work up close to the enemy, I wish that was addressed too, along with tiny improvements I suggested that I hope are not hard to apply.
2) And yet, you’re still forced to use guns to kill to create corpses to begin with. The spell besides that is pretty much worthless, not only you can’t use it on demand to damage enemies, but you need to use guns for it to be effective and try to trick the enemies so they could walk near corpses, and yet it doesn’t even damage them much. Arch-Vile argument is irrelevant as guns will just kill Arch-Vile fast enough and the game initially wasn’t meant to be played on Doom anyway.
3) Pulverizer stuns anything just as good, and damages enemies just as good, with dual wield you become untouchable
4) Ugh… In all honesty, I hate stat spells with passion that just makes enemies weaker against other attacks. I would be more than happy if it gets removed as the guns already powerful enough, or at least made Cauterizer do exact same thing, just in opposite direction. That would set things fair for everyone and balanced in a way. As for Arch-Vile argument, see above.
5) You can grab only one (in a very rare bug occasion, sometimes two, but only for a second or so) NPC at once, so you become vulnerable to all other attacks while being unable to harm ranged enemies unless you throw away the NPC you currently holding. Although, yes, grabbing stuff is really fun, just like launching them. Pulverizer and Strucker with Stratocaster can easily pain-lock enemies too, but that’s not really an argument when you kill them fast and easy as well. Arch-Vile argument, see above.
6) Arch-Vile argument, see above.
7) Yes, that’s quite fun and powerful spell indeed, insanely expensive though, but totally worth it. Although, it’s much inferior to what Old Dreadful has to offer.
As you can see, the magic is more fun and interesting thing to use unlike boring weapons that mostly differ from hit-scan to splash damage (explosions), this is why I wish magic were just as powerful, as they are much more fun to use, although it’s subjective. But only because it does have some non-traditional type of attacks that just goes beyond hit-scan and generic explosive projectiles, doesn’t mean it should have worse DPS and overall destruction power in comparison to weapons. If anything, give weapons more variety and more play-styles rather than dump down magic only because it has more variety and play-styles, so the guns gets less reason to use. It’s a common thing in video games that if something is just fun to use, it will have very limited use or will be very weak and super situational, so the rest of the time you’d have to stick to lame assault rifle or SMG, or shotgun because there is no other option available, like developers couldn’t think of something original and more fun even in a Sci-fi or a Fantasy game; and as time passes by people start to notice it, so then the forums are full of either rant about it being underpowered, or just asking for it to have more use.
DoomKrakken wrote:Do consider the fact that Cygnis absolutely hates magic, as it was used to practically glass his homeworld... so the role magic plays in this mod fits quite nicely with his overall character.
Ugh... And this is why I said this gives me cringe, don't remind me that again please.
The “lore” doesn’t make sense what-so-ever, and it helps me enjoy the mod a lot more when I do not think about it. Why anyone in sane mind would hate something just because it’s effective, rather than person who uses those things that effective??
Why don’t humans that are serving in army hate weapons when they are in a war just because their enemy killed so much teammates with those weapons and practically caused terrorist attacks; so instead of using lethal automatic long range rifle, they will just use pitchforks and torches against their enemies?? Why didn't village commoners and just Chinese people from ancient times, once their villages being occupied and performed a genocide by the evil vile Japanese people, didn’t just go and complain that swords and katanas are cheap, filthy, overpowered, lame, no-skill and dishonourable weapons only because they are light, easy and lethal against anyone without amour; and just go defend their homeland with stone clubs because they are much harder to use and takes much more skills to master?? Why Americans during WW2 era didn’t “absolutely
hates” the swords themselves only because there were brave Japanese people who did a really nice ambush with it and manage to kill some of the American soldiers, rather than hate Japanese soldiers instead?? Sure, nuclear bombs are hated among the whole world and are banned pretty much everywhere, but no one uses thermonuclear hydrogen bombs just because it’s more powerful to revenge or just to fight back because they hate nuclear bombs for the past. Sorry to say that, but this just all sounds idiotic and senseless.
Does he really suffer from own complexes to a point he denies common sense and worship his own made up huuunuuuurrrr perspective, and feeling so obligated to prove something that doesn't needs to be proved?? And isn't using overpowered weapons against something obviously much less overpowered just prove you to be a huge filthy hypocrite?? All this gives me so much cringe to a point I sincerely believe this mod is a "a" word, and I'm afraid I can't even use this word on forum, which is sad, because it's perfect description of it, at least of its story. This is why I sort of said that this is a bit scurrilous and offensive mod for me. This is why I value gameplay much more than stupid stories that just exist for the sake of being there, so I try to ignore story as often I can, they can be so stupid and pushy that it makes me be angry, especially in Elder Scrolls games. I worry about gameplay, not a "story", this is why I made suggestions to gameplay and not something related to story. Not to mention this mod works on hexen, heretic and even doom now, so "story" is completely irrelevant. Besides, the "story" itself makes absolutely zero sense and is indeed completely blunt.
But only because I fully disagree with cringey aspect of the mod, doesn't mean I shouldn't like it or hate it, or that I shouldn't be able to give suggestions to balance and improve it around what I feel would fit a lot; and story or lore is imo shouldn’t affect the gameplay, nor serve as an excuse of why you shouldn’t have that or this, especially in a fantasy world where anything is possible. After all, it's a doom mod, the game of the best and the most strongest philosophy of video gaming ever existed - "the story in a video game is like story in porn, it is there but
ABSOLUTELY not important”. Gameplay > Story, that's the main law for video game to be good, at least for me. And in terms of gameplay, this mod is
AWESOME. Sorry if my perspective and opinion sounds a bit harsh, don’t mean to offend anyone.
Arctangent wrote:If you want to put a lot of effort into your feedback, put that effort into brevity. There are times where a lengthy discourse is appropriate, but when it comes to most situations you're just going to end up with a giant post that goes mostly ignored because nobody wants to read all that, like, seriously, nobody wants to read what is an essentially a thesis paper on what could be improved in a hobby project. Being concise lets you get straight to the point, it lets the developer get straight to your point, and something actually might get done.
Really, keep that part in mind: it lets the developer get straight to your point. If what you're trying to say is buried under twenty miles of irrelevant fluff, even if the dev reads all that chances are they might misinterpret what you were getting at entirely and nobody ends up satisfied.
But I tried really hard to elaborate it’s in clear details so you
wouldn’t misinterpret it. It’s not filled with “irrelevant fluff” as I’ve even tried to categorize my post, so it’s all mostly related to topic (Guncaster) or points I were tried to make.
I create paragraphs with different space length and lists for easier readings, I even put the key words in the specific colours; like red ones are the short information of the docket in the list and blue one is what the paragraph itself is all about. Then I had a huge list of what I had to share on forum, both from YouTube comments, my own suggestions and some of the bug reports I found myself, so I wouldn’t have dozens of smaller messages saying exact same thing just in each post and flood the forum.
I’ve been on Steam forums where threads are over 100,000 characters long and everyone get used to them and love them most, as they are the most elaborated and well-explained ones rather than short unexplained and unfounded rants, which result in 10 pages flame wars with almost no end.
It’s easier to read it all in one post than having a hundred of messages and replies simple because someone misunderstood each other and one had to repeat himself just to elaborate more. Most Americans and English speakers I know are fast readers anyway.
Being concise let’s everyone misunderstood me way much easier. If I were just being like “plz add dis shit n’ fix this”, no one would understand what I truly meant to say and it could be easily misinterpreted and misunderstood. I tried to reduce the superposition between the “what it could mean” and “what I truly mean” as much as possible.
But like I said, I’ve already put the “concise” points in the colour text, so if you’re lazy to read the rest, just read the core of what I’ve been trying to say and choose what you personally like to read, be that bug reports or new spell ideas if you please. Buuut, I guess I’ll have to use “spoiler tags” more often in future to hide the explanation of anything, as I’m quite new on this forum.
Doesn’t mean people have to be mean to me just because I’m not get used to this forum standards, as each forum have majority of people that create specific standards for everyone and wish (or even force) people could obey it, thus creating a “meta” of the forums, pretty much the reason I don’t bother using forums that often anymore.
Even now I try to explain my points in clear details and put it as elaborated as I only can, and try to predict any future responses so we both would end up with much lesser unnecessary discussion and weekly checking of thread for replies, just to simplify and speed things up. I can’t visit the forum very often either, so once I have free time I will have to respond to everyone I view necessary as fast and as clear as possible.
PillowBlaster wrote:Christ, I am away for a week or two to take a break from this, and suddenly I see a gigantic wall of text with a hefty premise for a shitstorm? Way to keep me motivated.
Eh, I’m afraid you’re talking about me, considering you mention the “gigantic wall of text”.
But I’d like to say at first that I wasn’t trying to sound rude to you in the slightest. To be clear, when I said about “spewing out”, I said it in a joke way. I’ve even asked several people over internet that helped me to correct my English if that phrase sounds a bit rude, they all said “no”.
The only reason why I even decide to use it in a joking way is because you were a bit rude and scorning about youtube comments, calling all us “constant
moaning”, while on forum people just go openly calling each other names and nitpicking to each other as they please, while I try to stay objective, so I just tried to use a bit of same behaviour as people here on forum. Or even now, saying that we (or probably just me) are just pushing with “copious amounts of whining”. Although I do not mean you were intentionally rude!
That reminds me TF2 forum, where once you objectively try to explain that something is overpowered, people gonna just being jerks and say that I, or anyone else who made certain claim about balance, is just “whining” and “moaning”, not to mention those words alone are offensive by itself. This is seriously getting on my nerves, and could be the case of why I’m so allergic to those words. But don’t blame me, I’ve had to check the text several times and ask all sort of people if that phrase sounds disrespectful, they said its more sounds like a “humble banter”, and I tried to use it in a joke way, not to show my disrespect. This is why I apologize at end if my English made anyone be puzzled.
Yes, I appreciate that you actually listen to YouTube comments, didn’t knew you were listening to me as well.
I never demonized weapons either way, they might feel overpowered (for me) but I’m absolutely against any sort of nerf, even against touching ammo capacity. I never took the “joke plot” literally, even if I don’t like it I try to focus mainly on gameplay aspect; I just wish it didn’t interfere with actual gameplay like people seem to assume it directly interferes with gameplay, although I don’t know for sure about it.
When I say weapons are overpowered, I mostly mean things like Sovereign, Ironblast and Pulverizer in comparison to vanilla weapons (but that’s their purpose anyway); and when I say overall magic is underpowered, I mean in comparison to all weapons and all spells, because dual Pulverizer or especially Sovereign with upgrade Stratocaster is superior to even most expensive spells and not just Old Dreadful (The Firespit spell was compared to melee mostly, though), while spells feel like they are just a little helpers, this is why I called them just a support, but when something is support and other thing is offensive it’s not really balanced in general.
By the way, its common idea that monsters in doom games, including Heretic and Hexen are vulnerable to any type of attack, even Wendigo in HeXen can be frozen to death with two attempts with Frost Shards at point blank. I bet a lot of people like the way that monsters can be harmed by anything in any of those games, unlike in other rpg games where a lot of enemies are immune to either physical or to magical attack without any reason, where you just being forced to use the type of attack you don’t like to use instead of your favourite ones.
I’m not against the fact that spells cannot be spammable, not sure who suggested them to be though. However, I just fully heartedly wish there were “super spells” that you would obtain them either at endgame, or make them be very expensive at the shop that you can’t truly spam, but would be equal even in comparison to the “super weapon” Old Dreadful. If you’re against it as you prefer that only guns have “super weapon” but not spells and consider it as balanced in your perspective which I will not judge, it would really upset me a lot to the bones but whatever… It’s your mod after all.
But anyway, it as well sort of pissed me off that the DoomKrakken just said “this really grinds my gears in the worst way possible” simple because I drop my
own perspective on things in my opinion like I demand someone to do it, it feels like I’m not allowed to say my opinions and suggestions on Zdoom
forums that I view would really fit the mod. In fact, most of those suggestions and ideas weren’t even made by me! Yes, I stand by the suggestions I say; yes I wish they were apply in the game; but I don’t force anyone to apply them, I neither push anything, I don’t even care if my post would be ignored if no one would be bother to read it, although I just hoped that there actually will be some people that will like those ideas. It’s in your right to dislike them or even to ignore them; I don’t know how else to say them politely for you to consider them, at least I’m trying to say it in a polite way.
Let’s be honest, I didn’t even hoped that those ideas would truly be implemented in the game. I just hoped that someone would read it and give their opinion on it, even if they don’t read it all they would just read certain part about what they liked, this is why I made sections and put key words in colours. I neither wanted to be pushy, and most definitely not demanding. However, I get to think objectively, and when I say things like “that’s not how you do it” means that if you truly wanted to achieve equality and balance to set things fair, if one have option to dual wield and the other don’t, that would not make this be equal and balanced. Balance is a rather objective thing, even though it’s founded by the subjective or collective
meta (the perspective on how you view the things balanced), and if you view magic as support element then this would be considered as balanced, but when you compare magic and guns overall, in my view it’s rather absolutely not.
Also, when I say that forum is a bad place, I mostly mean that people rather judge one another, nitpicking to one another and even call names openly even without truly know about what has been going on or what the person they judged truly did, they just focus on mass opinion and try to follow it just to not stand out from the crowd, instead of just do their own analysis and give proper conclusion, or just stand on the topic of the thread. In forums people are often as well focus on their “authority”, as they feel themselves so important they feel alright to be rude to anyone, but they couldn’t stand when someone is rude to them in back, and it grows in another flame war, however the one with less “authority” or just fame around get more supporters, so the other one become a scapegoat. I’m not here to pump my ego, I’m here regarding the topic, and the topic is Guncaster. Those are not just rumours and things that I “heard” about, it’s practically an empirical experience, and people like Redead-ITA and Doomguy914 are actual proof of that.
Anyway, I really don’t want any further flame wars or meaningless conflicts, so I’ll just apologize if I sound rude or “pushy” (I sincerely don’t know what this truly means, at least I haven’t pushed or forced any opinion, although I fully heartedly wish they were apply in the game) just to not derail the thread in to more nitpicking. I as well apologize if you didn’t like my critique, I know I can be a bit vivid, honest and harsh when I expressing my opinion, and it’s not always appreciated by other people as my views often contradicts the opinion of mass and thus it annoys them, even though we both know it’s my subjective view. Oh… And one extra apologize if my huge text, somehow, managed to delay the release of the 2.8 version. After all, I made suggestions for merely consideration and
maybe future versions.
Zhs2 wrote:Also, if you don't mind me asking, which old games had regenerating health? I feel like I've played one or two, but I can't name any of them off the top of my head anymore.
As for old school games that had health regenerations… Ummm… Can’t remember of names off the top of my head right now, other than obviously the old Elder Scrolls games before Morrowind (Morrowind was good too, though). Classic fallouts had some sort of regeneration of health, Disruptor, Faceball 2000 and my favorite - Jurassic Park: Trespasser, not only it had health regen, but revolutionary physics for it’s time. However, there been lots, lots of classic action RPGs from top down like Hydlide to first person that I can’t remember now. I think Wizardry series had health regeneration too. There was one really interesting first person RPG where you had some class selection, there were class like warrior that couldn’t heal himself, nor had health regen, but recover more health from potions than any of the other classes, some stealth class that if I remember correctly had cat face, and there were classes like Acolyte and Mage that both had health regen, and acolyte had healing spell in addition to that, although both of them didn’t recover much of the hp when drinking potions. That was the game I was thinking about when I suggested that.
