BorderDoom: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (update 1.1)

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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby BradmanX » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:54 pm

Yeah, some compatibility patches for some monster mods would definitely be nice.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Sunbeam » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:52 am

@fakemai
You're right. In general the mod is not intended to be played on slaughtermaps. The Demon Staff was added to make it *possible* to play those maps but still they are not the best ones for the mod.
I understand that gameplay "interruptions" have to be short. However that's something that I can control only partially. This is something that also happens with any RPG I believe. This is of course not something for everybody.
Do you have any concrete suggestions as to what should be changed in the presentation?

@Skibbo
Thank you for taking the time to comment!
I imagine Oblige creates great maps to play this mod on. :) I did not know about the addon, will definitely have to check this out!
I'm glad you like the mod. The ammo problem was pointed out before and it also happened to me once. The problem lies in the randomness: In one playthrough you get more than enough ammo while on the second you might only get the "wrong" type of ammo. I have an idea for that.
I think I will reduce the per-level increase of monster stats (health etc). It may be a bit much now if you encounter enemies that are several levels above you.
Killing higher level enemies *can* give you higher level weapons. However they have a chance to drop like any enemy.

@Solid-Head
Thank you! :)
Yes the fists are a solid fallback weapon. However I see that especially higher level enemies can drain your ammo quickly. I will look for a solution.
Finishing an episode of Doom 1 at level 11 seems good to me. So you roughly got one level per map.
The code is not included, however if enough people want me to share it I probably will. :)
It was intended to let the player use more weapons simultaneously by buying upgrades. However I did not get around to implement this. Not sure if I will in the future...
Pistols are stronger compared to the base game because I wanted to give an incentive to use them even if you have other weapons. I personally tend to use other weapons more often, so this seems okay to me.
I will have to think about how to make the staff more compelling to use...

Better sprites: Will probably not happen, because I don't have the necessary skills to do it better. :P
Map number: Enemies should not scale with the map numbers, because you never know what level the player will be in any specific map and the game needs to stay balanced. If you're level 10 but you face enemies that are 15 (on map 15 for example) you will have no chance.

I'm not sure how well portable powerups would fit into the gameplay but I could definitely imagine portable medkits (like in Borderlands).
Having the ability to upgrade your ammo capacity is on the todo list. ;)
Do you think having different reload times for weapons would be a good addition? I could implement that, but I'm not sure if it would "enhance" the gameplay...
Each shotgun fires a different amount of shots/pellets. It should be displayed on the weapon info.

I don't know why PK3 would be more compatible than PKZ, as the wiki states that both are just ZIP files internally (and also recommends PKZ). But good to know.
Yeah the weapon pickups are a bit more complicated than in the base game...

I'm glad that you had fun playing with this mod!
Solid-Head wrote:Don't give up on this, even if it take 6 year for another release 8-)
Let's hope it won't! ;)
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Solid-Head » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:46 am

Sunbeam wrote:Finishing an episode of Doom 1 at level 11 seems good to me.

2 Episode actually. Mikk Episodic-EX make this possible. I also use Josh AI Director, so I guess there was monsters than usual.
Sunbeam wrote:The code is not included, however if enough people want me to share it I probably will.

Me want !!!
Sunbeam wrote:It was intended to let the player use more weapons simultaneously by buying upgrades. However I did not get around to implement this. Not sure if I will in the future...

Very interesting. Hope you get around this.
Sunbeam wrote: Enemies should not scale with the map numbers, because you never know what level the player will be in any specific map and the game needs to stay balanced.

I think you're right. After a test with nuts.wad and being level 45, I saw that low level weapon hit like pea shooter or doesn't damage the enemies at all.
Sunbeam wrote:I'm not sure how well portable powerups would fit into the gameplay but I could definitely imagine portable medkits (like in Borderlands).

Just shooting some ideas here and there. Medkits would be very nice though !
Sunbeam wrote:Do you think having different reload times for weapons would be a good addition? I could implement that, but I'm not sure if it would "enhance" the gameplay....

I think it would be a great addition. I would choose a very fast reloading machine gun instead of one with slightly more damage for instance.
Sunbeam wrote:Each shotgun fires a different amount of shots/pellets. It should be displayed on the weapon info.

You're right ! i was only looking at the final number.
Sunbeam wrote:I don't know why PK3 would be more compatible than PKZ, as the wiki states that both are just ZIP files internally

Wasn't sure either, but anything with an compiled ACS file would make my game crash. It work after I rename it. Perhaps the load order wasn't good

Sunbeam wrote:Let's hope it won't!

Take you time !
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby fakemai » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:45 pm

Sunbeam wrote:Do you have any concrete suggestions as to what should be changed in the presentation?

At its core it's that you actually have to consider all weapons of a type as a potential upgrade and appraise them as such. It's not a DRLA situtation where the rarer categories have different beams, and the truly special print a message informing of their presence, and the only stat differences are done through the player modding them. In short, the less time spent weighing up one vs. another the better. To that end, having all 3 equipped weapon stats comparable not just the equipped weapon might be nice but again, even moreso would be to give a rough "appraisal" colouration to them based on their total stats. It would need to be weighted since damage and magazine size are comparatively more important than recoil and such, but you get the idea. On top of that though, I think Borderlands randomized much more than just numeric stats? As it stands you don't need a big inventory as you do when it'll usually be a clear upgrade (or downgrade) compared to, say, if weapons can have other special properties. I don't know how far you want to take the randomness or taking liberties with the original game. Ultimately it's your mod so do what you think is best for it.

>Better sprites
It may not be just down to you. Check any of the well known Doom mods and they often have lengthy credit lists where others in the community have helped out in some way or another. Who can say?

>ACS source
While not quite as established, it's also happened sometimes that others will help out when trying to narrow down coding, either in the mod, or in terms of potential regressions in GZDoom itself. Some mods even go as far as to use proper version control systems e.g. Lithium. Regardless this is one area where distributing the ACS sources in your mod is a good idea, especially when plagiarism and bad actors aren't a very common issue to worry about.

>PKZ
I actually thought this was a 7-zip archive! If it isn't though .pk3 is the standard extension.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Sunbeam » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:07 am

@Solid-Head
Thanks! I will consider your ideas. :)

fakemai wrote:give a rough "appraisal" colouration to them based on their total stats.

Good idea. I'm not sure how the "weighting" would work, but I like the concept.

>Better sprites
You are right. However I tried to keep the mod mostly "self contained" (made by me). But still I won't rule this out for the future.

>ACS source
I think the code works okay as it is and I can do most things I want myself. At least with coding. I will probably release the code in the future (I already did this with an old version).

>PKZ
According to this page (https://zdoom.org/wiki/Using_ZIPs_as_WAD_replacement) PK3 is for/from Quake 3 and PKZ is intended for ZDoom. Maybe this is not accurate?
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby BradmanX » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:22 am

.pk3s and .pk7s work in ZDoom as well, this is the only mod I've ever seen as a .pkz and never even knew they were a thing before now.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Mech » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:04 pm

Creating an account here is hell, but being a Borderlands fan and seeing this thread demands it.
First of all, congratulations on finally making it to release! I remember project like this existed few years ago, but as far as I remember, it didn't even reach alpha stage.
About a staff: If it really must be kept, you should make it look like some Eridian gun - considering all the magic they do in the original game it would make the staff look more like another feature from Borderlands and less like a last ditch effort for situations where everything else fails.
And which Gzdoom version does this mod require? My pc is a potato class one, and everything higher than 3.4.1 is gonna kill it.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby EddieMann » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:32 pm

Is there any chance of Legendoom crossover for a fuller Borderlands experience?
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby theroguemonk » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:01 am

Eddie man you have discord?
let me help you create your weapons .. aka sprites... i love to .. i love your MOD a lot!
someoen should pitch in to make unique weapons for the level of weapons....
I STRONGLY SUGEST USING HEALTH mood where you can adjust enemy health.. i always use it but its not like oging to do give levels or grades on monsters...
i an see this to become A TRULY GREAT mod.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Sunbeam » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:51 am

Mech wrote:First of all, congratulations on finally making it to release! I remember project like this existed few years ago, but as far as I remember, it didn't even reach alpha stage.

Thank you! :) Yes, the mod was in development for some time. ;)
Mech wrote:About a staff: If it really must be kept, you should make it look like some Eridian gun - considering all the magic they do in the original game it would make the staff look more like another feature from Borderlands and less like a last ditch effort for situations where everything else fails.

You are right in that Eridian weapons would be a good addition. The main reason why I would like to keep the staff is because I did not want one weapon to be more powerful than another (like it is the case with Doom: the BFG is always the best weapon). So instead the demon staff balances itself because it is "fueled" by crowded situations. And this theme would not make much sense with ordinary weapons I believe.
Mech wrote:And which Gzdoom version does this mod require? My pc is a potato class one, and everything higher than 3.4.1 is gonna kill it.

I tested the mod with GZDoom 4.2.1 but also with 3.1.0. It was created with backwards compatibility in mind to (theoretically) allow a multiplayer version (for other ports).
Mech wrote:Creating an account here is hell, but being a Borderlands fan and seeing this thread demands it.

What exactly was the problem? Anyway thank you for taking the time to post here! :)


EddieMann wrote:Is there any chance of Legendoom crossover for a fuller Borderlands experience?

From what I read the monster changes *might* be compatible. The weapons most certainly are not.


theroguemonk wrote:Eddie man you have discord?
let me help you create your weapons .. aka sprites... i love to .. i love your MOD a lot!
someoen should pitch in to make unique weapons for the level of weapons....
I STRONGLY SUGEST USING HEALTH mood where you can adjust enemy health.. i always use it but its not like oging to do give levels or grades on monsters...
i an see this to become A TRULY GREAT mod.

I currently do not (if you were referring to me).
Do you have any experience with making sprites?
Nice to hear that you like it! :)
Is that a mod that you already use? If yes: How does it work? Does it just scale enemy health?
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby gunofdis » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:25 pm

Neat mod so far but the recoil is absurd.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Enjay » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:35 pm

BradmanX wrote:.pk3s and .pk7s work in ZDoom as well, this is the only mod I've ever seen as a .pkz and never even knew they were a thing before now.

They're all just re-names for other archive types (zip, 7z) with a specific internal directory structure anyway. IMO, we should have gone for PKZ (or similar) from the outset. PK3 is a Quake 3 thing.

Too late now. :?
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby gunofdis » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:50 am

Needs a hud with all ammo types visible
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Mech » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:53 am

gunofdis wrote:Needs a hud with all ammo types visible

"Alternative HUD" could be a temporary solution.

Sunbeam wrote:You are right in that Eridian weapons would be a good addition. The main reason why I would like to keep the staff is because I did not want one weapon to be more powerful than another (like it is the case with Doom: the BFG is always the best weapon). So instead the demon staff balances itself because it is "fueled" by crowded situations. And this theme would not make much sense with ordinary weapons I believe.

You took me wrong here. I wasn't talking about the way it works, I meant just the appearance of the gun. Though the weapon itself is still looks out of the blue to me, because imho if player gets surrounded it's their problem and their only, for modders can't just foresee all the combinations their mod will be played with.

Sunbeam wrote:I tested the mod with GZDoom 4.2.1 but also with 3.1.0.

Phew. :-D

Sunbeam wrote:What exactly was the problem?

Site refused to accept my email and had to google the right answer for captcha. :bang:
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby theroguemonk » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:17 pm

yes... its called tagart something it just scales enemy health depending on what you want...

also i sugest you putt the worst pistol at start and not the fastest and best which seemes like you have...

i have experience making sprites but i cant stand making enemies.... i can make weapons.. but no coding.

do you have discord? or any messaging system?
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