[Hopefully final, BUMPED TO REL. #5!] Pagan

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Re: [Release #2] Pagan (...The Altered DOOMCaster)

Postby Ed the Bat » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:14 pm

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing evil or incorrect about the old method, and it certainly works. But using the new method is overall cleaner and can allow for more flexibility, which is important to some of the things I like to do with ZDoom. Anyhow, I'll leave it as it is for right now, but once I figure out how to do it for Synthetic Fire, I'll send you a PM with an updated version, if you'd like.

Also, I've noticed that you've actually got quite a respectable collection of mods out there, with this as the latest one. I know it would be some work (and maybe not an idea you're interested in), but sometimes I wonder about how it would look if all your projects were sewn together into one big project. Just some food for thought. :)
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Re: [Release #2] Pagan (...The Altered DOOMCaster)

Postby rsl » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:33 pm

Ed the Bat wrote:Don't get me wrong, there's nothing evil or incorrect about the old method, and it certainly works. But using the new method is overall cleaner and can allow for more flexibility, which is important to some of the things I like to do with ZDoom. Anyhow, I'll leave it as it is for right now, but once I figure out how to do it for Synthetic Fire, I'll send you a PM with an updated version, if you'd like.


That'd be greatly appreciated! :D Thanks.

Ed the Bat wrote:Also, I've noticed that you've actually got quite a respectable collection of mods out there, with this as the latest one. I know it would be some work (and maybe not an idea you're interested in), but sometimes I wonder about how it would look if all your projects were sewn together into one big project. Just some food for thought. :)


Thanks for your appreciation! :D Yeah, that's an interesting concept - something I speculated about, too. Yet my idea in this connection would have been to design an N-th, brand new modification where I would have tried to combine together the specific mechanics of each past mod, right when building this one from the ground up. :geek: Were you thinking about something similar? Or maybe you had in mind some sort of "binder" modification to be loaded on top of some/all others? Just curious... :P
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Re: [Release #2] Pagan (...The Altered DOOMCaster)

Postby Ed the Bat » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:38 pm

I'm not really sure what would be required; I'd have to take a look at it. It could either be another mod that loads the rest as purely resources and then handles things from there, or some huge mod that runs on its own which contains the combined resources of the old mods put together. I guess I pictured the final product to be, like, putting all of the player characters from the different mods together on a team, players would select their favorite and they'd each follow the same rules and have the same powers as they did in their original mods. So, co-op would be interesting because then multiple players could mix-and-match the characters for simultaneous play. Aside from that, though, it might be more work than it's worth, since a player could just quit and then launch a different mod when he wants to change characters.
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[Release #3] Pagan (...The Altered DOOMCaster)

Postby rsl » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:54 am

Hi! I'm self-bumping just to say that a third version of the mod is now available at its own IDGames link in the opening post (don't be fooled by the text file displayed by the IDGames interface; it always sticks to the first version :?).
The following list includes all changes for this release:

  • new ZDOOM 1.6.x line universal reload keybinding integrated into the mod, courtesy of Ed the Bat.
  • fixed revolvers behaviour after premature unmorphing (would have fired once without any user input).
  • fixed captivation spikes behaviour (that would move on the floor under a fully-charged hatchet slash).
  • slightly toned down the spawning rate of revolvers ammo and heavy weapons dude / baron dropitems, for better balance.
  • fixed the following revolvers bugs: 1. with only one bullet pack left, there is now a priority mechanism that favors the reload of Nina (the right revolver). Ed the Bat fixed this! 2. player no more appears to be firing with any Anna A_GunFlash invocation. Thanks again to Ed the Bat! 3. added a slight time shift when invoking simultaneous reload-on-dryfire for both revs when only one bullet pack is in storage: this avoids revolvers to be both (erroneously) reloaded with that one pack.

Special thanks to Ed the Bat for providing a lot of contributions! :D
As usual, feel free to let me know if you liked it. :wink: I would really appreciate a comment on the IDGames archive - even if it's constructive criticism!

Also, if you haven't already, take a sneak peek at my old stuff. It's all been (silently) updated for all the time being, so you might find new bits here and there anyway... :idea:
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby Ed the Bat » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:09 pm

I'm just happy to make positive contributions. =:)
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby chronoteeth » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:50 pm

When reloading the revolver on the left, if you mash the key down, it keeps taking ammo from your leftover magazines and constantly starts the animation over again
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby Ed the Bat » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:07 pm

chronoteeth wrote:When reloading the revolver on the left, if you mash the key down, it keeps taking ammo from your leftover magazines and constantly starts the animation over again

I'm unable to reproduce this issue. Are there any other specifics you can provide to help me sniff this out?
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby CorSair » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:42 am

So I played this for some time, and my two cents?

Leviathan is a mixed ball of opinions. Sometimes, it feels rather underpowered (lost souls require two shots), and the reload time makes it feel worse when surrounded by them. But the ricocheting ability is really neat thing, and gives one step of being more pliable. If you want, you might limit the carry amount to 30/60 for the trade-off for more power...

Revolvers are awesome, but what about switching their places? The left click fires the inaccurate revolver, it should fire from left, yet it shoots right... Feels awkward for me. :P

The Orb of Lord's secondary could cause stunning in the nearby enemies. Still feels rather cubersome to use.

The Orb of Master's Captivating ability is quite useless. To spice it up, make morphed player able to pass through of them (morphed players are not able to circumvent them if they managed to get themselves trapped), launch enemies into air who gets struct by those spikes and deal good amount of damage, and the ones who are inside of it, take small amount of damage over time. That should give more use of it. Other powers are good as is.

Ed the Bat wrote:I'm unable to reproduce this issue. Are there any other specifics you can provide to help me sniff this out?

If your left gun is empty, you press fire for auto-reload, and the same time you hit the reload button. That should do the trick.
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby Ed the Bat » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:24 pm

CorSair wrote:The left click fires the inaccurate revolver, it should fire from left, yet it shoots right... Feels awkward for me. :P

I've thought about this a couple of times, myself. But, technically speaking, it's not left click that fires Nina, it's Primary Fire. The fact that you have that bound to left click (I do, too, and I know it's the default bind for it) is actually under your control, not RSL's. I mean, you could always rebind your mouse keys if you really wanted to. :3: But, in the end, I guess you can think about how most people favor the right hand (at least in games), so the left hand would be the off-hand/alternate gun, so alt-fire would use that one, right?

CorSair wrote:If your left gun is empty, you press fire for auto-reload, and the same time you hit the reload button. That should do the trick.

Doing this, I'm able to get it where I consume two bullet packs instead of one. It doesn't repeat like the bug report seemed to indicate, or anything like that. Nevertheless, it's certainly a glitch that needs to be addressed. RSL was the last one to look at the reloading mechanisms, and I would guess he'd like to investigate to see if he can fix it. I'll look into it, too, just to see if I come up with anything; two heads are better than one.
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby rsl » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:39 pm

Hello All, Guys! It's nice to see some participation to the thread... :) You got quite a bit of stuff to discuss. Let's try to answer point by point:

@Chronoteeth, Ed the Bat, CorSair: thank you all for spotting and detailing the left revolver bug! I investigated a bit, and apparently found a (hacky) solution. Now, let me try to describe it (I apologize in advance for any pedantic - and thus unwanted! - overdetailed explanation).

You need to keep in mind that the two revolvers are managed via two execution threads (forked straight from the Ready state by means of the A_GunFlash DECORATE function) that wait for player input at their "NinaIdle" (right) and "AnnaIdle" (left) states, respectively. This is what allows to display multiple HUD sprites contemporarily - in the case of this weapon the left and right revolver, whose graphics are provided as separate sprites.

Now, when causing auto-reload of the left revolver, its execution flow jumps directly from "AnnaIdle" to its private "AnnaReload" state, and starts refilling the weapon; but at the same time, the right revolver execution flow is still waiting at the A_WeaponReady call within its "NinaIdle" state, and when you press the standard "Reload" key, it jumps to the common "Reload" state and attempts to restart the reload sequence for both revolvers.

The hacky fix (which I tested by trying to rape my keyboard :shock:) consisted in protecting the "Reload" state with a dummy inventory item that is given to the player whenever he/she is autoreloading one of the guns: if at that time you press "Reload", the right revolver execution flow tries to enter the common "Reload" state and immediately checks for the presence of such dummy item in the player's inventory. If it's found, the thread promptly jumps out of the "Reload" sequence, back to "NinaIdle" - avoiding what you've found. :wink:

(Okay, it wasn't very clear... I tried my best!! :P)

@Chronoteeth: hi old friend! I'm glad you showed up and tried the mod! :D

@CorSair: heh, your point on Leviathan's balance is surely agreeable. I had a similar impression when playing Eternal DOOM with this mod - single-barrel fire seems more effective overall. Anyway, I like the idea of limiting its total ammo storage capacity - it's always been a bit too abundant...
Good suggestions also for the Mage captivation spell -- trying to implement them right now. :!:
As for the left/right revolver fire binding... I guess Ed the Bat described very well what is my opinion, too. :) I felt it was the most natural setup also because in my controls configuration, primary fire is on the right, and alternate is on the left... Go figure! :lol:
Last edited by rsl on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby Ed the Bat » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:46 pm

Sounds like a good enough solution to me. I actually had a few moments where I thought using a dummy item to somewhat imitate the older reload mechanism would fix things up. More than one way to skin a revolver! :D

Of course, the most important thing is that the user experiences the desired effects. :)
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby CorSair » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:07 pm

Don't know where that obsession with Left click fires left weapon, right click fires right weapon - logic comes from, probably times when I played Marathon 2 at some point...
But it was just an aesthetic side. Right?
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby Ed the Bat » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:13 pm

I've seen it done in a few other games, like that free cowboy-themed FPS game. Smokin' Guns, I think? Of course, if your hero was left-handed, the primary gun on the left would be a perfect logical fit. :)

Come to think, doesn't it seem particularly rare that you see a left-handed gunner in an FPS game*? Considering the averages say about one-in-ten people would be left-hand dominant (and I'm personally left-eye dominant even though I'm right-handed, so I'd shoot left-handed to help my aim), you'd think you'd see it once in a while.

*Doom's hero throws punches and shoots pistols with his left hand, but every other gun with his right. I never quite understood that one, myself.
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby rsl » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:15 pm

Hmm, I've never played the original Marathon games... Must have been an interesting take on the FPS genre. :)
As for me, I must admit my current controls setup / style of play owes a lot to the original (GL)Quake... To me, having full mouselook and reserving to right and left arrows all the strafing action seemed like a blessing right from the start! :D
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Re: [Again updated, RELEASE #3!] Pagan

Postby CorSair » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:53 pm

Ed the Bat wrote:I've seen it done in a few other games, like that free cowboy-themed FPS game. Smokin' Guns, I think? Of course, if your hero was left-handed, the primary gun on the left would be a perfect logical fit. :)
Yep!
Ed the Bat wrote:Come to think, doesn't it seem particularly rare that you see a left-handed gunner in an FPS game*? Considering the averages say about one-in-ten people would be left-hand dominant (and I'm personally left-eye dominant even though I'm right-handed, so I'd shoot left-handed to help my aim), you'd think you'd see it once in a while.*Doom's hero throws punches and shoots pistols with his left hand, but every other gun with his right. I never quite understood that one, myself.
Game named Clive Barker's Undying, Patrick fires revolver and sawed-off in his left hand (and prefers using magic on right hand.)

I think we still got more starred problems than the little aesthetic side of a nitpick... :wink:

.:edit:.
And just to say how underpowered the Lord's hammer is, I gave cacodemon few punches, then started to beat it with hammer. Three strikes to kill caco. In whereas I can punch the shit outta from cacodemon in less than a second. My idea: Make hammer more of area-of-effect type, suited to whack group of weak enemies (and maybe propel them away for the fun of it).

Also, Master's Retaliation doesn't make enemies target arch-vile.
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