Diaz v3 - Random Public Beta #3.5! [p.13]

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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby SamVision » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:28 am

wildweasel wrote:Yeah, not to mention that even if it were possible to make a cover system, I would not want one, because I prefer to do things manually. I hate cover systems because they never seem to do what I want them to do.

Well how about leaning? Ya know like in FEAR, Deus EX, Call of Duty and STALKER.
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby wildweasel » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:35 am

Leaning is useless in Doom because of the way hitboxes work. Also I don't want it anyway because I never use leaning controls anyway!
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Shadelight » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:45 am

wildweasel wrote:Leaning is useless in Doom because of the way hitboxes work. Also I don't want it anyway because I never use leaning controls anyway!

I agree with this, the only time I've ever used leaning was in RTCW where I felt it was useful.
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Snarboo » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:19 am

I like leaning in games that allow it, but common, this is Doom! You're meant to die on your feet, not peaking around corners. :p
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Estopolis » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:38 am

I would like to see an update for Diaz.

Although in the update I think there should be at least a different shotgun than what's currently in.
Not a fan of that Mini shotgun at all.

The rest of the weaponry is fine though.
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Sangelothi » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:12 am

Maybe you could replace one of the Diaz costumes with Agent Zero??? (You don't have to create a new weapon for him, maybe just give him the Marteba)

Also, I prefer KeyConf since it's still usable, not to mention if you don't use KeyConf it becomes less compatible with map packs that even have one extra gun like Liberation of Earth or UTNT :? It seems that KeyConf overwrites Weapon.slotnumber
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Princess Viscra Maelstrom » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:13 am

My suggestions:

New weapons. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, perhaps a silencer attachment to the Judgment (that has already been suggested), a new shotgun which would replace the mini shotgun, and some kind of fancy remote bomb detonator?

Weapon changes. The weapons in HC-Diaz could use some re-doeing, the grenade for example, needs to be toned down in power. It's even more powerful than a RPG rocket! The cluster is also a bit iffy because it gets thrown into your direction, making killing crowds of smaller monsters often hurt you more than it hurt them. Oh, and perhaps make so that you can hold down the button to determine the force of the throw? Throwing grenades in HC-Diaz feels very static because once you press the button you throw a grenade.

Akimboeing pistols sounds like a GREAT addition to the mod, it could perhaps make the pistols more useful. One thing that would be neat is that only Diaz can dual-wield P50's and Hernandez only can akimbo Judgments and remove the ability for both player classes to get the other one's pistol. That would give people a reason to play as both classes.

The submachine gun is pretty much useless once you get bigger weapons to play with. It takes about nine shots to kill an Imp with it, and you couldn't even kill a Caco with a full clip whereas the Skorpion can.

The PSI Amp could use some changes, like that you can hold down the button to charge up a shot. As in, if you just tap the primary button you shoot a small ball of fire only, but when you hold down the primary button it could shoot two different kinds of fire balls depending on how long you hold the button. So if you just tap the button, you shoot a small fireball, hold down it a bit and the ball becomes bigger, and hold it down long enough to shoot a huge fireball, and vice versa for the lightning. Oh, and it would be a cool feature if you had to hold down the reload button to charge the PSI Amp, to make it less cheap to use.

Same thing could be done to the combat system, hold down the alternative fire button to charge up how powerful the hit shall be with the weapon you have.

The Lance Driver needs rebalancing. The first charged up shot is the only one really worth using, the second one consumes to much ammo to be useful, and the third one has to bee the most unbalanced one. It consumes all your ammo, but deal the same amount of damage even if you have a full clip or just one shot left.

Speaking of ultimate weapons, the Energy Neutraliser is useless compared to the Lance Driver. Each shot consumes a Energy Cell, and the most powerful it can kill is only a Hell Knight. Compared to the Lance Driver, the EN is a absolute joke in terms of ammo consumption. Perhaps giving it a magazine capability and the ability to charge up it's shots could make it more useful? If not, then that weapon needs to be replaced.

Phew, i'm done now-
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby wildweasel » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:54 am

Zero-X wrote:Maybe you could replace one of the Diaz costumes with Agent Zero??? (You don't have to create a new weapon for him, maybe just give him the Marteba)

Agent Zero never actually had a proper appearance; my response to this is the same as any requests for new weapons - if someone wants to do graphics for it, I'll think about it.
Also, I prefer KeyConf since it's still usable, not to mention if you don't use KeyConf it becomes less compatible with map packs that even have one extra gun like Liberation of Earth or UTNT :? It seems that KeyConf overwrites Weapon.slotnumber

Yeah, that's a point, plus SlotNumber is giving me hiccups at this point anyway for some reason...
doomhunter_175 wrote:My suggestions:

New weapons. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, perhaps a silencer attachment to the Judgment (that has already been suggested), a new shotgun which would replace the mini shotgun, and some kind of fancy remote bomb detonator?

Yes, perhaps a new shotgun is in order. It's tempting to just re-hand the Hunter shotgun from Hernandez and use that, but as with the other requests for new weapons, I really don't feel like graphic editing very much at this point. This isn't a flat-out "no", though.

Weapon changes. The weapons in HC-Diaz could use some re-doeing, the grenade for example, needs to be toned down in power. It's even more powerful than a RPG rocket! The cluster is also a bit iffy because it gets thrown into your direction, making killing crowds of smaller monsters often hurt you more than it hurt them. Oh, and perhaps make so that you can hold down the button to determine the force of the throw? Throwing grenades in HC-Diaz feels very static because once you press the button you throw a grenade.

The grenades are kind of tricky to use, yeah. Your suggestion above about the remote mines could be a good excuse to replace the grenades. Just need graphics, and some way to make sure they don't override the friendly fire settings like The Stranger's satchel charges.

Akimboeing pistols sounds like a GREAT addition to the mod, it could perhaps make the pistols more useful. One thing that would be neat is that only Diaz can dual-wield P50's and Hernandez only can akimbo Judgments and remove the ability for both player classes to get the other one's pistol. That would give people a reason to play as both classes.

I never really intended for the different classes to have any major gameplay differences. Referring back to the Agent Zero suggestion, I was once experimenting with an extra class addon that started the game with the Marteba and two reloads of ammo - he ended up being vastly overpowered because of this, as the Marteba does roughly Doom Shotgun levels of damage compared to the basic pistols which are about half that.

The submachine gun is pretty much useless once you get bigger weapons to play with. It takes about nine shots to kill an Imp with it, and you couldn't even kill a Caco with a full clip whereas the Skorpion can.

The SMG's primary purpose is crowd control. It excels at clearing rooms full of zombies and imps. Anything more powerful than them tends to be a waste of ammo.

The PSI Amp could use some changes, like that you can hold down the button to charge up a shot. As in, if you just tap the primary button you shoot a small ball of fire only, but when you hold down the primary button it could shoot two different kinds of fire balls depending on how long you hold the button. So if you just tap the button, you shoot a small fireball, hold down it a bit and the ball becomes bigger, and hold it down long enough to shoot a huge fireball, and vice versa for the lightning. Oh, and it would be a cool feature if you had to hold down the reload button to charge the PSI Amp, to make it less cheap to use.

In order of appearance:
  1. A charge attack could actually be cool.
  2. I'd probably opt for making the fireball larger instead of it shooting more fireballs.
  3. An alternate way of charging the Amp would probably be better for balance - SNK-style charging could take longer, and make the Psi Stimulants more useful.

Gotta get going here so I'll address the rest of your suggestions later today.
Last edited by wildweasel on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: argh, fixed.
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Kate » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:04 pm

You forgot to close the list tag at the bottom. =P

Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing an update to Diaz. =)
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Xaser » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:40 pm

Hmm, I have a few thoughts (mostly responses to/echoes from older posts):

wildweasel wrote:I was re-reading the old Diaz thread last night, and someone asked me why I didn't rearrange the weapon slots to use all ten number keys instead of having 7 keys with two weapons each. I don't think I ever responded to that - I could do that now, since I'm replacing the weapon slots anyway (removing the Keyconf support and changing weapon slots in Decorate instead). The only real question though: how should I arrange them? Traditional power-equals-position style (with the fist on 1 and the Lance Driver on 0)? Most Frequently Used order (like CS, where primary weapons are on 1, sidearms are in the middle of the row, and disposable/throwables are on 0)?

A reorder might work, since you could arrange weapons according to the ammo type they use. The CS-style order, though, does not strike me as intuitive at all, though -- that would probably make things all sorts of confusing. Still, I didn't find it particularly confusing as it was, except for the RPK+Slugthrower combination. If anything is changed, I'd suggest placing the Slugthrower on its own slot (maybe slot 7 and bump the energy guns up to 8). Grenades might be worth placing on their own, but that's not as big of a deal.

I wanted to toss out the three Diaz costumes, but considering the four classes were planned to be a Hernandez feature, would it seem cheap to make Molinero and Cortes available in this version? (For that matter, their sidearms as well? Or should I just give them the P50 or Judgment? Adding their sidearms would complicate my dual-wield plans...)

The extraneous Diaz costumes can go -- they felt like nothing but fluff. But as for adding the other two characters, I say don't, because that would detract from Hernandez the Mod. The Hernandez skin has always felt like more of a 'bonus' than anything else (in a good way), without changing gameplay much, and I think it should stay that way.

If not complete new replacements, I hope to at least include modified (and graphically new) versions of basic Doom 2 enemies. Any objections to me returning the Revenant and Arch-Vile in some form or another as random spawns, instead of unconditionally replacing them with the Slugthrower and Assault Mecha unconditionally?

I honestly like the replacements as they are -- no real need to return them to the old ways, I'd think.

I think inventory items would clutter gameplay too much, but I'll hear everybody else's thoughts on it. Maybe enough demand would prompt me to maybe make items like the Combat Boost carryable.

Perhaps just this. Inventory items might be handy if done sparingly.

Yes, perhaps a new shotgun is in order. It's tempting to just re-hand the Hunter shotgun from Hernandez and use that, but as with the other requests for new weapons, I really don't feel like graphic editing very much at this point. This isn't a flat-out "no", though.

Eh, I was never too happy with my edit to the mini-shotgun. It's better, but still not great. I'm willing to tweak it a bit more, though, if it would mean keeping the mini. I really like its simplicity and don't want to see it removed (or, at least, don't want a Hernandez weapon to replace it because Hernandez weapons belong in Hernandez).


doomhunter_175 wrote:Oh, and perhaps make so that you can hold down the button to determine the force of the throw? Throwing grenades in HC-Diaz feels very static because once you press the button you throw a grenade.

I really like this idea, moreso than replacing it with a remote mine (if the latter is done, have it as a separate weapon). Grenades can be very handy and versatile if done just right.

Akimboeing pistols sounds like a GREAT addition to the mod, it could perhaps make the pistols more useful. One thing that would be neat is that only Diaz can dual-wield P50's and Hernandez only can akimbo Judgments and remove the ability for both player classes to get the other one's pistol. That would give people a reason to play as both classes.

I'm actually kinda inclined to agree here -- I never liked how you could get the other class's pistol, since it more or less defeats the (subtle as it is) purpose behind picking a class anyway -- plus, the clutter factor. The two guns are nearly identical anyway so it really doesn't benefit the player at all to be able to carry both -- if one prefers one or the other, they can just pick the right class. ;)

Also, I really like Doomhunter's suggestions regarding the Lance Driver and Psi-Amp. The latter has always felt a bit lacking in abilities, to me, but has a lot of potential as stated.


Forgive the long list, but I do have one more suggestion I've always wanted to toss out but never got around to during development: A few of the weapons' sounds really need beefing up, namely the mini-shotgun, SMG, RPK, and Mauser rifle. There is almost no bass at all, and the SMG in particular sounds like a series of clicking noises instead of a firearm. "Realistic" or not, it's just not satisfying at all to hear.

Having said that, I might take a stab at editing a couple of said sounds, if that would help you in your quest. :P
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby wildweasel » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:55 pm

Pink Silver wrote:You forgot to close the list tag at the bottom. =P

Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing an update to Diaz. =)

Dammit. Fixed. =P

doomhunter_175 wrote:Same thing could be done to the combat system, hold down the alternative fire button to charge up how powerful the hit shall be with the weapon you have.

I may not do that as charge attacks on most things can tend to be a pain to do, but I may expand the melee combat to make it a tad more in line with Yakuza 3 (where "finishing" blows can be followed up with a further finishing blow that does additional damage but takes slightly longer to recover from). I wish I could add throw moves but that's vastly beyond the scope of ZDoom.

The Lance Driver needs rebalancing. The first charged up shot is the only one really worth using, the second one consumes to much ammo to be useful, and the third one has to bee the most unbalanced one. It consumes all your ammo, but deal the same amount of damage even if you have a full clip or just one shot left.

The Lance Driver was pretty rushed. I'm not satisfied with the code on it at all, and I would much like to properly finish it...however, like before, I think I will need help with it. Anybody good at making awesome super weapons? Icytux? =P

Speaking of ultimate weapons, the Energy Neutraliser is useless compared to the Lance Driver. Each shot consumes a Energy Cell, and the most powerful it can kill is only a Hell Knight. Compared to the Lance Driver, the EN is a absolute joke in terms of ammo consumption. Perhaps giving it a magazine capability and the ability to charge up it's shots could make it more useful? If not, then that weapon needs to be replaced.

The Neutralizer probably could use a marginal power increase, but I never intended for it to be the "super" weapon. If I increase the power very much I would feel obligated to make it reload every few shots and operate a touch more slowly. (On the note of ammo usage, perhaps I could switch around the RPK drums and the energy cells? The 20-cell pack is a pretty common pickup in Doom though so I don't want to screw up ammo balance with that.)

Xaser wrote:A reorder might work, since you could arrange weapons according to the ammo type they use. The CS-style order, though, does not strike me as intuitive at all, though -- that would probably make things all sorts of confusing. Still, I didn't find it particularly confusing as it was, except for the RPK+Slugthrower combination. If anything is changed, I'd suggest placing the Slugthrower on its own slot (maybe slot 7 and bump the energy guns up to 8). Grenades might be worth placing on their own, but that's not as big of a deal.

Would having grenades/throwables on the last key still be a viable idea? Then I could stick the slugthrower on the same slot with the RPG as they're both explosives. Tentative weapon ordering changes:
1 - Fist and PsiAmp (fist will come first)
2 - Pistols (P50, Judgment, akimbo, silenced)
3 - Minishotgun and Marteba
4 - SMG and RPK (RPK will come first)
5 - Skorpion and Mauser (Skorpion will come first)
6 - Slugthrower and RPG7 (Slugthrower will come first)
7 - Neutralizer and Lance Driver (Lance Driver will come first)
9 - Grenade and Remote Bombs (Grenade will come first)

The extraneous Diaz costumes can go -- they felt like nothing but fluff. But as for adding the other two characters, I say don't, because that would detract from Hernandez the Mod. The Hernandez skin has always felt like more of a 'bonus' than anything else (in a good way), without changing gameplay much, and I think it should stay that way.

Okay, agreed.

Eh, I was never too happy with my edit to the mini-shotgun. It's better, but still not great. I'm willing to tweak it a bit more, though, if it would mean keeping the mini. I really like its simplicity and don't want to see it removed (or, at least, don't want a Hernandez weapon to replace it because Hernandez weapons belong in Hernandez).

Yeah. If I could just find some way to increase the "perceived" power of the minishotgun (maybe it's because the firing sound lacks oomph and the reloading sounds are too tinny?) that might make a fair compromise to those who would prefer the SPAS. On the other hand, maybe a complete replacement for a more CQB-compatible shotgun may be in order? I had drafted some weapons for an unannounced TC of mine that perhaps I could borrow from (but graphics would need to be made from scratch for it...)

Forgive the long list, but I do have one more suggestion I've always wanted to toss out but never got around to during development: A few of the weapons' sounds really need beefing up, namely the mini-shotgun, SMG, RPK, and Mauser rifle. There is almost no bass at all, and the SMG in particular sounds like a series of clicking noises instead of a firearm. "Realistic" or not, it's just not satisfying at all to hear.

I've already got a replacement in mind for the Mauser (the new Wolfenstein's Mauser is an amazing sound, and I could just bring back the original RPK's firing sound from the first version of Diaz, as in retrospect I vastly prefer that one anyway). I agree the mini-shotgun needs beefing up anyway, but I'm not sure what to do about the SMG. Perhaps it was a mistake to mix in Doom 3's machinegun bolt sounds with the sounds I chose. I don't opt for "realism" in my sounds so much as "Hollywood realism" - fun fact: did you know that Indiana Jones' .45 revolver actually has the firing sound of a Winchester rifle?
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby FuzzyBlaze » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:56 pm

Could you make an smoke grenade? Or detector bomb?
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby wildweasel » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:58 pm

Lucario wrote:Could you make an smoke grenade? Or detector bomb?

Smoke grenades are useless in Doom as monsters would be able to see through them anyway. And, uh, I'm already planning to add remote bombs, proximity mines would be pretty pointless too.
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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Estopolis » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:13 pm

About the minishotgun's "Oomph", maybe you can find a way for it to have some knock back?
The shotgun in Psychic has a very impressive amount of Oomph because of the sound and knock back.

I think appearance is also a factor.
The Minishotgun is pretty much just a tiny shotgun(As the name obviously suggests) so right away it's lacking Oomph.

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Re: [Poll] Diaz version 3?

Postby Snarboo » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:43 pm

Honestly I'd like to see the Arch Vile return, even if in some modified or limited capacity. However, bringing the Revenant back is debatable.
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