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Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:13 am
by Eric_
Doesn't seem to have changed anything. The cyberdemon still just stands around letting me break its shield.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:52 am
by Matt
Has this happened on any other map? I am completely unable to replicate this on the range.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:27 am
by Eric_
I'd been using E2M8 for further testing. I can also replicate it on the range, though. It looks like the cyberdemon is more aware than the previous commit, but only sometimes. If you aren't in its immediate line of sight when it spawns, it starts wandering and is mostly unable to spot you properly after that. Most weapons can be magdumped into or around it to no reaction. Bizarrely enough, the SMG is one of the only guns it does respond to with any consistency. I can be standing right in front of it, spraying it down with the Thunderbuster or Liberator or Vulcanette and it won't even acknowledge me until it's too late for it, but I put half a dozen 9mm rounds in its back and it'll immediately find and kill me.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:31 am
by Matt
If you aren't in its immediate line of sight when it spawns, it starts wandering and is mostly unable to spot you properly after that.
I'm thinking now it might be those non-looking wander frames combined with the fact that (this is not intended) monsters are now far more likely to lose their target and go back to their idle states.

I've made the cyberdemon look in those frames as well. If this causes things to improve I'll look into bumping the target-forget numbers.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:13 pm
by Eric_
No apparent improvement. Still largely unresponsive to being shot at. It makes an alert sound when I start shooting it (always did), but just stays idle after that.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:26 am
by Matt
What are the steps to replicate this on the range?

EDIT: Also, how certain are you that this problem only started happening after the recent tweak? I can see one possible cause to this but it seems like it should have been a problem for a while now...

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:04 am
by Eric_
Jump the counter, summon a cyberdemon, walk around it or shoot at it while at default height or shorter. It'll take a very long time to stop its idle wandering and fight back.

I did some digging and you're correct, it's an older problem. This commit is the actual culprit. I'm not exactly in the habit of staying in a cyberdemon's line of sight on even ground, so I didn't notice sooner.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:19 am
by Abba Zabba
Can confirm the cyberdemon wake up bug. I thought a hell knight had this issue too at first, but I think it was tracking one of my robots. Can't replicate. Cyberdemon took around 20 seconds to wake up over 5 tests when I was directly behind out of LoS.

Could a simple flow valve be added to blood bags to stop flow when you need to sprint through a section without wasting the entire bag?

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:17 am
by Matt
Eric_ wrote:Jump the counter, summon a cyberdemon, walk around it or shoot at it while at default height or shorter. It'll take a very long time to stop its idle wandering and fight back.

I did some digging and you're correct, it's an older problem. This commit is the actual culprit. I'm not exactly in the habit of staying in a cyberdemon's line of sight on even ground, so I didn't notice sooner.
I think I've found the problem. Not sure why height would have any effect, though (which it seems to do for me fairly immediately).
Abba Zabba wrote:Could a simple flow valve be added to blood bags to stop flow when you need to sprint through a section without wasting the entire bag?
I can see the rationale but it seems like one of those things that Just Isn't Done with medical equipment with bits that go inside people.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:05 am
by Abba Zabba
Matt wrote:I can see the rationale but it seems like one of those things that Just Isn't Done with medical equipment with bits that go inside people.
Fair enough, I did a decent bit of searching on whether this was, to any extent, applicable to modern IV; the closest would be flow control clamps, which I suppose eliminate any possibility for trapped air. However, wouldn't a 'normal' or nominal blood pressure (in other words, no loss of blood) greatly slow the flow of the bag's fluids, as your circulatory system stabilizes?

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:49 am
by Eric_
Height's involvement might've just been a fluke. Checking between the original commit that caused this and the latest, I've been able to spray a cyberdemon to death at maximum height without retaliation in both. I don't think line of sight is the problem, either. If I'm shooting at it, it should be alerted even if I'm setting off TB beams at its feet from around a corner. It shouldn't need to see me to know that I'm causing it problems and that it's time to get angry.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:54 am
by Matt
The good news is that I've confirmed that the cyberdemon is correctly acquiring the target right away, but the exact logical steps needed to get the state jump working from that wander state without leaving open the possibility of that sort of infinite loop I was trying to prevent is going to take a while...

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:19 am
by Eric_
Latest commit is working great now, thank you.

Are you particularly attached to the current stats for the 7.76 recasts? They really aren't performing noticeably differently from factory rounds, except for a ~20% increase in shield damage. Penetration, flesh damage, and even long-range accuracy are nearly identical. Even the shield damage difference is only significant in the case of the stock chamber Boss, where the extra velocity is just enough to break 500 point shields in one shot instead of two.

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 3:22 pm
by Matt
For what it's worth I'm not particularly attached to these latest changes either.

Unrelated to bugfixes but necessarily related to how I'm going to decide on the final functional difference, here's a great video about so-called "realism" and why I've tended to avoid that word for HD for years:

Re: Hideous Destructor 4.7.1c

Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 8:54 pm
by Eric_
The current stats are at least a bit better distinguished, with a noticeable and sensible downside in armor penetration offsetting the upside in shield damage. It would be nice to see that played up further, but I don't think it's strictly necessary. I just find myself exclusively using one type or the other as availability allows simply to keep clutter down rather than actually considering their differences for my current situation. I think it would be more interesting to load up recasts when I need to wrestle with Hell Knights and switch to factory rounds for sniping chaingunners and see substantially better results for making that effort.

A modding request this time: could you remove the lasttip check at the end of tips.zs? It causes a desync in multiplayer if one person is loading a replacement tip pool. I've removed the code locally to confirm that it doesn't desync without it (and really makes no appreciable difference in tip selection - you tend more to see the same tip repeatedly simply because you die and reload an autosave several times over before you actually beat the level and roll for a new tip).