Hideous Destructor

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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby Gorec » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:35 am

after 3 levels of alien vendetta i have something to say:

1.slow mo bullettime(ye im noob) doesnt work with hd cause unload gun and hotkey for slow mo uses the same button and resetting doesnt makes difference
2.why not add mines,any type that fits the game and maybe make zombies throw grenades(if they have any)
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby Bigger C » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:57 am

There *are* mines. The IED kits let you turn rocquettes into motion sensor explosives and you can also turn grenades into improve booby traps. Check the manual.
Last edited by Bigger C on Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby LadyErisXII » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:11 am

So people have been talking about the weight of things and from what I can tell, everything in the mod is significantly too encumbering
Doing some math with existing weapons and the infiltrator loadout
SMG (using an MP5 as comparison): 5 lbs 8 oz or 6 lbs 13 oz/2.5kg or 3.1kg (for the A2 fixed stock model and A3 retracting stock model, A3 is a more direct comparison, A2 is probably closer in weight considering space materials)
Pistol (M9): 2lbs 2oz/970 grams unloaded, loaded weight ~2 lbs 4 oz/ 1kg
Armor vest (Level IIIA soft vest) 5 lbs 8oz/2.5 kg
195 rds of 9x19mm (124 grain NATO spec, actually heavier than existing loads for 9x21) 3 lbs 6 oz/1.5 kg
Goggles: 680 grams/1 lbs 8 oz
Stimpack: Can't really find a good weight comparison, but likely negligible
Medkit: No real analogue to real life, gonna guess 4 lbs/ 1.8 kg
Grenade Launcher(M79): 2.93 kg/ 6lbs 7oz loaded
4 Roquettes (using 40mm ammo as closest comparison): 2 lbs/ 900 grams
DERP: ~4 lbs/1.8 kg
7 Grenades: 6 lbs 1 oz/ 2.77 kg
This gives us a total weight of 40 lbs 10 oz using the lighter SMG or 41 lbs 15 oz with the heavier one/ ~18.38 kg or ~ 19 kg, which really isn't all that heavy at all, especially if we're to believe if DOOMguy has some form of webbing gear on him and infiltrator is actually among some of the heavier loadouts in the game thanks to all the stuff it's carrying, yet it's in game weight is exactly 900 blocks with your fists out. Which prevents sprint speed from outpacing run speed, makes the vertical hop tiny and significantly reduces the leap distance. Just the 9mm ammo alone makes up 154 blocks! With the one man army mode being added, I think things could do with some restructuring to make weight seem a lot more plausible as things are adding so much weight when they really shouldn't. Like 3 lbs worth of ammo equaling 150 blocks of weight, which is just 50 off from the same weight as the SMG, which is nearly twice the weight of the ammunition.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby Matt » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:12 am

> if we're to believe if DOOMguy has some form of webbing gear on him

::looks at doomguy sprite::

Point taken though I always imagine all this shit flopping about on the player awkwardly, so I tend to err in favour of it being worse.

9mm may be too bulky generally though.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby LadyErisXII » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:36 pm

Matt wrote:> if we're to believe if DOOMguy has some form of webbing gear on him

::looks at doomguy sprite::

Point taken though I always imagine all this shit flopping about on the player awkwardly, so I tend to err in favour of it being worse.

9mm may be too bulky generally though.


Well I mean, he's gotta have some means of carrying it somehow right? I don't think anything short of 2 dozen pockets is gonna carry 5 30 round magazines like in the SMG, ontop of 7 grenades, 4 roquettes and 2 pistol magazines and all his other gear. Not even including his other stuff. It should also be a bit more consistent honestly. I've found a DERP weighing like 55 blocks, while the pistol itself is close to 93.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby mumblemumble » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:47 pm

Seems to me burst accuracy needs a nerf for jackboots, unless braced, it seems i can't par their accuracy especially for quickly done shots. Beyond that, crits seem a little too powerful, chest shots with 4 mil drop almost any humanoid even imps in 1 round, and its not even very picky with accuracy. Seems to me it should be a little harder to 1 shot them, maybe not impossible, but difficult.

Any chance we could ever get smoke grenades? I feel they would be a massive boon to the player, assuming you could make ai inhibited by smoke, either not shooting, or assuming suppressive fire into the smoke. Would be very interesting if paired with a stealth system too.

An idea for derp and possibly herp. Could we get a detection range setting? Speaking of which, derps seem off lately, very unenthusiastic about shooting, at least in my download a few days ago. Have you tested them recently?

The double fire for the ssg i think would be much better as a toggle than hold function, perhaps a switch you slide forward to connect both trigger mechanisms. Would be much more ergonomic.

Mancubi strength is huge now, but i think they should stagger their 2 dual shots by up to 7 tics or something, they don't look well coordinated enough to fire simoltaniosly. Also, since their cannons are so inefficient in lore, perhaps they deserve a slighty lower fire rate?

Current movement rate on 3d floors is not normal, i think the ledge detection counts 3d floors as 1 big ledge, which really makes several maps unplayable.

Is the lowering a weapon in cqc intended for difficulty? Because it REALLY feels like it and in a very bad way, as babuins, but particularly ninja pirates have a joker card up close. Godforbid they latch on you are screwed, and the interupt even stops the chambering of the next round, so you will be forced to rack the slide to shoot again. Its just a very cheap addition, and id prefer my gun being roughly pushed away than being disarmed. If the gun at least being pushed away stays, could auto pistols be made a little more common in hands of marines, dragon guards, and jackboots? This irritating situation really makes me wish for an auto pistol when a pirate is noming on my arm. Alternatively, does the kick have the turn velocity inheritance like punches? I feel this would really help, but at least never being forced to put my gun away feels pretty necessary, it doesn't make sense a marine lowering their gun because a monster is up close. Pretty much, i absolutely hate this feature, it feels wonky and causes far more problems than it creates. So if its intended as a quality of life element, it isn't. If its for difficulty, please just make the gun barrel swing away.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby LadyErisXII » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:08 am

Alright, so I've been thinking about the encumbrance system and blocks, and I'm starting to find it's a very flawed system. If we're assuming DOOMGuy does not have any webbing gear or anything of the sort, the whole system falls flat because it's just outright impossible for him to stuff as many things as he does into his pockets outright, unless his pants are from the plane of infinite pockets. If we assume he does have webbing gear, the "Bulk+weight" argument kinda falls flat because if he's wearing gear that even remotely fits him, the bulk is going to be negligible, his stuff isn't going to be flopping and shaking around in any meaningful way to affect him in the slightest. This is the case for stuff in his pockets too, he'd run out of pocket volume before he'd have any issues with moving around comfortably. Assuming the worst for how difficult it is to carry things is honestly a huge mistake in my opinion, unless DOOMGuy is strapping things to himself with rope and making a kilt out of rifle magazines, I can hardly find a situation in which it would flop around on him, not to mention most things have adjustable straps, or could just be moved around in different pockets until one could comfortably move in the downtime between levels/waiting for your HP to tick back up/backtracking in a large level, it'd make more sense for him to try and fit things on him as best as possible.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby mumblemumble » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:14 pm

I think encumbrance is wrong with the chaingun, i move faster with it out, than put away. I think when you made it bulkier, you didn't adjust the "when weapon out" offset.

Imp fireballs seem a little too tenacious now, certainly more dangerous overall, faster, always lighting me up and doing around 30 damage. I think there should be better forgiveness, perhaps crits effecting how hot it gets. I think at very least, singular glancing shots should burn armor but not the person. I felt it was better balanced that way, as now fireballs feel little different than vanilla really, besides a delayed damage, and stacking damage. And the damage from burns quickly gets very out of hand compared to how it was for a long time, or the fire a week ago, that didn't immediately do damage.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby LadyErisXII » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:46 pm

mumblemumble wrote:I think encumbrance is wrong with the chaingun, i move faster with it out, than put away. I think when you made it bulkier, you didn't adjust the "when weapon out" offset.


I'm very certain that's intentional, the gun is less bulky when you're wielding it after all, at least in comparison to it being slung over your back. Easier to handle while running around with it.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby mumblemumble » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:37 pm

Things don't work that way, something on your back gives you better balance and thus movement if on your back, and this is how it was for a while.

By that logic we should run slowest barehanded =)

If the tb is indeed reworked into a plasma gun, could larger blasts have electric / radioactive arcs going through walls like caco blasts? I feel this would fit, and compare well to the liberator.

By the way, you recently changed bullet penetration? I had on map 73 of dump 3 the teleport glass wall bullet proof with 3 separate walls, but now shots go through. Not complaining, i like it, but now I'm curious how I'd make bullet proof walls for thin architecture in hd, given my old method is now broken..
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby LadyErisXII » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:29 pm

mumblemumble wrote:Things don't work that way, something on your back gives you better balance and thus movement if on your back, and this is how it was for a while.

By that logic we should run slowest barehanded =)


I mean, that seems to be the idea and besides, most guns aren't even going to shift your balance in any meaningful capacity when wielded, while having the benefit of not just being slung over your back and dealing with the bulk that way. But yes, as of right now we technically do run slowest barehanded in HD.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby Azba » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:32 pm

mumblemumble wrote:Is the lowering a weapon in cqc intended for difficulty? Because it REALLY feels like it and in a very bad way, as babuins, but particularly ninja pirates have a joker card up close.


Pretty sure that's the entire idea. Babuins were previously mostly unthreatening, and now they can latch on and get in the way of being able to aim your gun, unless it's a pistol.
It's annoying, yes, but now they have a niche to play to in combat rather than mostly being an annoyance.

Ninja Pirates are significantly worse for this though, that much I can agree with, but I think it's mostly fine. I personally don't think NPs needed the ability to latch on since they were already plenty dangerous, but here we are.

mumblemumble wrote:Godforbid they latch on you are screwed


If we're talking NPs then in most cases yes, but you can at least try to punch them to make them let go and back up to give you enough room for your gun. You can also draw a pistol and hope it dies in a single magazine.
It's tough but you do at least have a chance - you know, like the rest of HD's monsters. If you're lucky enough to have black armor on they actually won't drop you dead in a second too.

mumblemumble wrote:Its just a very cheap addition, and id prefer my gun being roughly pushed away than being disarmed ...
it doesn't make sense a marine lowering their gun because a monster is up close.


The marine isn't "lowering their gun because a monster is up close" - there's literally not enough room for you to hold the gun up between you and the monster. Particularly if the monster is making a point of pressing against you, e.g. trying to claw or bite you. This doesn't only apply to babuins and ninja pirates either, you can try it with an imp, zombieman, a wall, barrel... The gun's being "pushed aside" like you're asking, just think of it more like being pushed down or flat against your body because it can't fit in the space. Hell being latched onto also throws off your aim already, and in a very distressing manner. I don't think having the gun pushed to the left or right like I think you're asking for is going to be much better, because you still won't be able to swing it back toward the monster - it'll still be blocking the gun's space with its body.

With Ninja Pirates as opposed to Babuins, they're much bigger and therefore even more space-invasive. Pistols at least don't take up much more room than your own hand, so it's not awkward and difficult to pull it out and pop a cap in something's ass up close and personal. All the other guns are two handed and longer than a pistol, so I don't really see a logical way of being able to point and shoot them at something that has latched onto your body and is biting you. (You might be able to argue the SMG though, not sure how big it's meant to be)
As an aside, sometimes I can't use a pistol against an NP but I think that's because their latch-on coding has put them like inside my player sprite or something, seems more like an unintended bug than an intended feature.

Additionally I'd like to voice that I love the existing thunderbuster and I don't think it needs to be changed at all. I love the lightning bolt on primary fire mode, it's extremely handy for clearing out ambushes or pillboxes at most ranges beyond danger-close. And for those who prefer the OG plasma gun, the alternative fire mode is close enough and still plenty powerful - though maybe not as visually satisfying.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby Matt » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:50 pm

Running barehanded is the slowest on some setups right now. Having everything strapped to your back does not do posture or balance any favours.
Things don't work that way, something on your back gives you better balance and thus movement if on your back, and this is how it was for a while.
I've only ever found this true with large items (occupying a plane bigger than 1'x1') that are primarily designed to be strapped to one's back for easy carry and are soft enough not to bounce easily. Bags and whatnot.

Having the weapon out is equivalent to holding it ready to use. It's in your hands in the most secure place you can be carrying a foreign object, in more or less the position that would be the default assumption behind any ergonomic considerations put into its design.

That said, the Vulc and BFG might in their shape be quite different than your typical hand-held weapon. They already receive special treatment in the main player movement code. Whether strapping it to your back is any improvement is ambiguous in my mind at best; if anything, the Vulc in front of you and a backpack plus some guns behind you might even balance out.


As for stubborn muzzles, I might consider a cvar for that, after having been effectively disarmed a few times now. But then if one were to assume that a closing enemy were trying to do that...
You can also draw a pistol and hope it dies in a single magazine.
And then switch back to your primary and unload in its general direction while it's running away (or dead and trying to make you think it's just running away).


I think it's possible to reduce a bullet's penetration by having it go through several layers of blocking linedefs, but this has to be true blocking linedefs not raised floors or lowered ceilings.


As for the TB, I'm going to redo the entire primary fire for a superficially similar but still noticeably different rebalancing, similar to the imps. I was thinking of getting rid of the alternate fire since the new version is going to be much safer at close quarters but there might still be use for it.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby mumblemumble » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:27 pm

You make a good point about the bouncing. I wonder, could we have a pair of lashings on the backpack to carry a SINGLE primary weapon with greater ease? Even just one, or possibly 2 small guns (all gl-less zm, shotguns). And maybe room for pistols. My hiking backpack could certainly carry a shotgun, and possibly a chaingun, with perhaps a widened movement. Actually this would be an interesting effect, what about a short "antenna" for a backpack? As someone who used them a lot, they certainly restrict movement in tight spaces when stuffed. Not a lot, but enough that turning in a small hallway would be a challenge without taking it off.

As for the enemies up close, well, there's 2 problems. First, this causes failure to feed a LOT (which is actually very realistic for something like a pistol, since pushing against the slide will push it back, preventing the next bullet chambering, but this wouldn't effect rifles) and second, unless the gun was literally ripped from your hand (I'm not apposed to this for EXTREMELY violent collisions) then the gun would remain in hand, and still be semi maneuverable. Something like an ssg, even just half pointed at a ninja pirate would be effective at scaring them off, bare minimum, assuming the gas explosion from the gun powder didn't rip them enough to kill. Imagine a shotgun going off 1 inch to the right of your head, you'd probably at least be hospitalized if not killed from the sheer cuncussive blast at that range, and that would be enough. Besides, i remember killing ninjas this way early on, just getting glancing double barrel shots, enough to disembowel them. It really depends what happens, but i think with a little wrestling could still give glancing shots. If not, we really need a folding stock on the smg... Or let us make a sawn off shotgun with the chainsaw. Its a felony, but the tyrant is already giving us the death penalty right? :D

As for an alt fire for the new plasma, what about a sort of chain lighting conductor, chaining electricity through multiple enemies in short range, and using the conduction of the gun to keep the player safe? Or perhaps not. Ever seen chain lighting from Magicka? Something like that, and just as chaotic but awesome, like Murphys law in the form of electric arks. Unsure if you can do that, but it would be hilarious to clear around a door with electricity arking through monsters, dead bodies, and other stuff, with terrifying effectiveness and unpredictability. (or ar least, its predictably is so chaotic its a scary prospect.) and if you added this, you could also make spiders less wimpy at short range.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Postby LadyErisXII » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:17 pm

mumblemumble wrote:As for the enemies up close, well, there's 2 problems. First, this causes failure to feed a LOT (which is actually very realistic for something like a pistol, since pushing against the slide will push it back, preventing the next bullet chambering, but this wouldn't effect rifles) and second, unless the gun was literally ripped from your hand (I'm not apposed to this for EXTREMELY violent collisions) then the gun would remain in hand, and still be semi maneuverable. Something like an ssg, even just half pointed at a ninja pirate would be effective at scaring them off, bare minimum, assuming the gas explosion from the gun powder didn't rip them enough to kill. Imagine a shotgun going off 1 inch to the right of your head, you'd probably at least be hospitalized if not killed from the sheer cuncussive blast at that range, and that would be enough. Besides, i remember killing ninjas this way early on, just getting glancing double barrel shots, enough to disembowel them. It really depends what happens, but i think with a little wrestling could still give glancing shots. If not, we really need a folding stock on the smg... Or let us make a sawn off shotgun with the chainsaw. Its a felony, but the tyrant is already giving us the death penalty right? :D


Actually, You're wrong on the point with rifles. Weapons can fail to feed reliably if there isn't enough "resistance" for the mechanism to work, especially true in recoil operated systems like pistols and most likely the shotgun. Less noticeable in gas systems. Also, a concussive blast from a shotgun going off next to your head will certainly not harm you (assuming you don't get hit directly by gases or a single piece of shot) it would very much just daze you and be extremely unpleasant. I've sat next to AR-15s going off next to my head and it's certainly not a fun experience, and I know 12 gauge shotguns have a lower gas pressure than rifles, but I'm still very alive. Otherwise, you should imagine babuins and ninja pirates latching onto your arm pressing against or otherwise maneuvering your rifle or other weapon into you and away from them, effectively making longer weapons useless.
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