Hideous Destructor

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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Serathis » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:14 am

Shotguns in general should be crappy against body armor. Sure it might degrade the armor quite a bit and it would hurt like a mofo but the damage taken should be low.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Arco » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:19 pm

DavidWolfe wrote:
Matt wrote:I checked E1M1 the last time this came up, at 34m it's within the typical maximum effective stopping range for a shotgun of this sort. All I can do is make the shotgun guys maybe miss a bit more often.


I think you'll find that pellets on full body armour at 35 meters won't be as effective as they are right now.

Plus, if a full barrage of 4.26MM rounds won't kill me, why would 1 or 2 stray pellets do?


I don't know much muzzle energy is in an average 4.26mm round, but for reference, a 5.56mm usually contains around 1,200 ft\lbf, which should be more than enough for a level 3 body armor type design to handle. For shotguns using buckshot, you have to take into consideration that it has higher muzzle energy than 5.56, at almost 1,900 ft\lbf. While it may be able to stop those pellets, it wouldn't be able to contain that much energy, which could kill something in its own right.

A car going 25 mph is far more likely to be fatal than if it is going at 20 mph. The amount of energy an object has and its route to deliver said energy is key.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Matt » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:10 pm

I need to get a lot more data and totally overhaul the damage - it really was more of a proof of concept that I intended to tweak a lot more over time than I actually have!

Armour should be doing more to convert things to blunt trauma (stunning and internal without wounding), at least...
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Serathis » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:24 am

Alright, realistically, nothing could protect against 7.62 rounds on an infantry scale. 5.56 the heaviest ballistic vests at long ranges, or with UAC sci-fi materials from medium. Getting a chestful of buckshot would hurt a lot, but would be absorbed by vests. Pistol and SMG rounds are generally weaker, vests shouldn't have a problem with them. The ceramic armor could be more resistant to getting set on fire, but degrade faster from fire damage.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby DavidWolfe » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:46 am

Arco wrote:For shotguns using buckshot, you have to take into consideration that it has higher muzzle energy than 5.56, at almost 1,900 ft\lbf. While it may be able to stop those pellets, it wouldn't be able to contain that much energy, which could kill something in its own right.


Do any of you even physics?

The energy gets distributed over several pellets. These pellets are nothing special, they're round, simple objects, most likely lead. It's inert, but easily deformed. Simple body armour (IIA, security vest) can probably even stop this around 10 meters. Sure, it might feel like you got kicked in the chest by a horse, but the chances of it going through a level III(A) body armour, which I imagine the blue armour to be, is very small. The kevlar catches the pellet, simply warping and draining energy of the impact away, until the kevlar can't budge in any further. The projectile itself is crushed/deformed due to the impact, and the fibres of the kevlar shred and wrap some more to drain even more energy away from the impact. Add a few plates to that and the damage is almost negligable due to the impact being spread out over the surface of the plate. You all forget that the rifle rounds usually have a different shape than pellets, such as a spitz point to pierce through an object itself. That's one of the reasons kevlar won't easily stop a rifle round.

Besides, if the shotgun did that much of a kick back on the target, you'd probably break your arms firing it. Think about it.

I don't know where ya'll are getting these strange ballistic ideas from, but shotguns aren't the be-all end-all of firearms. Else, why would we have rifles and snipers? The shotgun in HD is basically an all-round good-for-everything weapon, while IRL, it might just be handy for close quarters.

Not that I give a rats ass, I'd just appreciate not being one shot from the other side of a level in my black armour.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Matt » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:25 pm

it wouldn't be able to contain that much energy, which could kill something in its own right

if the shotgun did that much of a kick back on the target, you'd probably break your arms firing it.

Just trying to think this through now, from a bunch of half-remembered stuff read over the years...


Bullets normatively kill people (and big game) by punching holes in them and making stuff leak out until it stops working. If it doesn't penetrate, it is blunt trauma.

Shotgun on shooter is like being punched on shoulder by a big padded fist that spent a bunch of its momentum on moving the shotgun itself. Shotgun on armoured victim is like being punched in the chest by a much smaller and less padded fist that had a lot less shotgun to slow it down.

One of them can make you bleed out and die, while the other might in some circumstances stop you sooner but may or may not do so permanently (relative to the fight).


(An FMJ bullet with similar energy would be closer to getting stabbed.)


I remember reading a while ago a thing about how the knights at Agincourt, even though not a single arrow could ever hope to knock them back let alone punch through their armour, were so overwhelmed by the barrage that it (along with a few other factors - mud, etc.) contributed significantly to their defeat. This would be equivalent to each arrow netting a point or three of non-bleeding, potentially slightly stunning regenerable damage in HD.


(For what it's worth, when I first did the bullets I didn't bother looking up how to define properties, which is why bullet hardness and shape are not accounted for.)
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Arco » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:42 am

DavidWolfe wrote:The energy gets distributed over several pellets. These pellets are nothing special, they're round, simple objects, most likely lead. It's inert, but easily deformed. Simple body armour (IIA, security vest) can probably even stop this around 10 meters. Sure, it might feel like you got kicked in the chest by a horse, but the chances of it going through a level III(A) body armour, which I imagine the blue armour to be, is very small. The kevlar catches the pellet, simply warping and draining energy of the impact away, until the kevlar can't budge in any further. The projectile itself is crushed/deformed due to the impact, and the fibres of the kevlar shred and wrap some more to drain even more energy away from the impact. Add a few plates to that and the damage is almost negligable due to the impact being spread out over the surface of the plate. You all forget that the rifle rounds usually have a different shape than pellets, such as a spitz point to pierce through an object itself. That's one of the reasons kevlar won't easily stop a rifle round.


The problem here is that it doesn't have to penetrate armor to kill you. The energy delivered by any projectile with sufficient energy could be enough to break bones and rupture major organs without having to enter the body and cause damage that way. A round like a 7.62mm NATO is also not commonly encountered at a range where the 12 gauge is. At 300 or so meters, a 7.62mm will lose a lot of energy, from 2,480 ft\ibs to ~1,500 ft\ibs, where as a shotgun using buckshot in 50 meters can still retain 90% of its energy downrange. You would be correct in saying that a 7.62mm can have devastating wound capacity at that same range with a 12 gauge, but a 7.62mm being encountered in such short ranges by an attacker would be unlikely, given its main role as a cartridge for sniper rifles and machine guns.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby LadyErisXII » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:55 am

Arco wrote:The problem here is that it doesn't have to penetrate armor to kill you. The energy delivered by any projectile with sufficient energy could be enough to break bones and rupture major organs without having to enter the body and cause damage that way. A round like a 7.62mm NATO is also not commonly encountered at a range where the 12 gauge is. At 300 or so meters, a 7.62mm will lose a lot of energy, from 2,480 ft\ibs to ~1,500 ft\ibs, where as a shotgun using buckshot in 50 meters can still retain 90% of its energy downrange. You would be correct in saying that a 7.62mm can have devastating wound capacity at that same range with a 12 gauge, but a 7.62mm being encountered in such short ranges by an attacker would be unlikely, given its main role as a cartridge for sniper rifles and machine guns.


Actually, the ability of even modern day armor to protect you from secondary wounding effects of a projectile is pretty good. The likelihood of being killed by a non penetrating round would be very slim at best, the first bullet resistant vests were just soft armor and were tested by the original inventor wearing the vest itself and he was fine. Contrary to popular belief, the recoil on a 12 gauge isn't really that significant, small children can handle it just fine, so really the worst that will happen if a soft vest, like what people commonly assume the green vest is, stops a load of buckshot is a big bruise and maybe a small crack in the sternum. Plates reduce the effect even further. Onto the topic of muzzle energy, .308 rounds are actually very commonly encountered within a hundred meters with irregular forces, as while yes, it's mainly a GMG and marksman/sniper's round with modern militaries, back in the 50's and 60's it was the standard infantry man's cartridge so you have battle rifles like the FAL and G3 still kicking around with irregular forces. Buckshot may retain a lot of energy still at 50 meters, the spread is going to be so wide out that maybe 50% of the shot is going to hit the person and you still lose a lot of muzzle energy from the loss of velocity. You're significantly more likely to get hit in an unprotected area rather than the little shot that's left hitting you in your armor and wounding you significantly.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Silentdarkness12 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:38 am

Welcome to Ballistics 101.

:D

Ok, but in all seriousness, all I know is that a singular shotgun pellet on the other side of the map shouldn't kill me with the same efficiency as a Baron's claws across my throat.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Matt » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:05 am

There's actually one more glitch that makes the shotgun super-OP but only against the player:

I didn't want to get too much into location damage, so every single bullet has a 1/6 random chance of being deemed to have hit an unarmoured spot and thus causing full damage and wounding effects.

Given that each shell has 7 bullets, on average you will take 5-6 reduced damage shots for a big hit in hitpoints plus 1-2 full damage shots that bleed you out - even in a situation where by all rights your armour should have stopped all of them.

This will be addressed in the damage overhaul.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby -Ghost- » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:03 pm

Ah, that's why that happens. I'd noticed shotgunners one hitting me from pretty far away as well.

The main thing I've had trouble with is catching on fire a lot. Sometimes I'm able to strip my armor to avoid it, other times I have to just wait it out. Does running around or spinning actually help? I think I read you can go in liquids too, but not sure.

The other thing I've been a little confused about is merging magazines/bullets. I've been able to bring up the little menu for it, but does it do it automatically from there, or do I have to hit another button?
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Silentdarkness12 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:30 pm

-Ghost- wrote:Ah, that's why that happens. I'd noticed shotgunners one hitting me from pretty far away as well.

The main thing I've had trouble with is catching on fire a lot. Sometimes I'm able to strip my armor to avoid it, other times I have to just wait it out. Does running around or spinning actually help? I think I read you can go in liquids too, but not sure.

The other thing I've been a little confused about is merging magazines/bullets. I've been able to bring up the little menu for it, but does it do it automatically from there, or do I have to hit another button?


1. Not effectively. And yes, standing in liquids will put a fire out hella-fast. Also it seems like getting hit with the mage imp's super duper shotgun fireblast will light you on fire so intense that stripping your armor won't save you.

2. You have to hit more buttons. There should actually be controls displaying on the screen, telling you how to do it. IIRC it's primary fire or alt fire to swap between types, unload to empty out a magazine, reload to start loading the bullets. Hitting a weapon key will put it away. Mashing the zoom key will dump your bullets on the ground.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby Caligari87 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:02 pm

On that note I finally tried the reloading system, and I love it! :) Feels weird to say, but thank you Matt for giving me yet another tedious thing to do while I try not to die a horrible death.

8-)
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby -Ghost- » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:09 pm

Silentdarkness12 wrote:
-Ghost- wrote:Ah, that's why that happens. I'd noticed shotgunners one hitting me from pretty far away as well.

The main thing I've had trouble with is catching on fire a lot. Sometimes I'm able to strip my armor to avoid it, other times I have to just wait it out. Does running around or spinning actually help? I think I read you can go in liquids too, but not sure.

The other thing I've been a little confused about is merging magazines/bullets. I've been able to bring up the little menu for it, but does it do it automatically from there, or do I have to hit another button?


1. Not effectively. And yes, standing in liquids will put a fire out hella-fast. Also it seems like getting hit with the mage imp's super duper shotgun fireblast will light you on fire so intense that stripping your armor won't save you.

2. You have to hit more buttons. There should actually be controls displaying on the screen, telling you how to do it. IIRC it's primary fire or alt fire to swap between types, unload to empty out a magazine, reload to start loading the bullets. Hitting a weapon key will put it away. Mashing the zoom key will dump your bullets on the ground.


Thanks, was able to finally reload my mags.

Fire feels like the one "Well, guess I'll die" thing I've encountered so far, since imps and barrels can set you on fire pretty easily. I wish there was a quicker way to put yourself out, even if was some rare fire retardant blanket or foam or something you could find as an item. Dying from the mega fireblast thing is understandable since it's telegraphed, has a windup, and can be dodged, but regular fire kills or almost kills me pretty frequently too.

Is there any chance of silent weaponry, like surpressors?
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.2.5.2]

Postby LadyErisXII » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:34 am

-Ghost- wrote:Thanks, was able to finally reload my mags.

Fire feels like the one "Well, guess I'll die" thing I've encountered so far, since imps and barrels can set you on fire pretty easily. I wish there was a quicker way to put yourself out, even if was some rare fire retardant blanket or foam or something you could find as an item. Dying from the mega fireblast thing is understandable since it's telegraphed, has a windup, and can be dodged, but regular fire kills or almost kills me pretty frequently too.

Is there any chance of silent weaponry, like surpressors?


First question, just simply crouch and turn your character left and right rapidly, or around in a circle, not sure which one works better. Play with it a little. As for silent weaponry, you have the SMG, which is practically integrally suppressed and quieter than every other gun in the game.
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