Hideous Destructor 4.3.3b

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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Arek_PL » Mon May 26, 2014 12:53 pm

i do not feel need for semi-auto shotgun because slayer do this well about hunter is still fast but reload is realy long i given a idea about mag feed shotgun like hsg-1 from killing floor about 1 or 2 pages ago

about light amps i think its realy nice because player never have situation to use 100% of it and in DN3D it wasnt not bad or op
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Matt » Mon May 26, 2014 1:13 pm

Vulcanette sprite is just a scaled-down Doom chaingun - a huge part of the sprite is actually hidden in vanilla.

At this point I think the RL is good as it is, so any balancing act will involve buffing other weapons.

The unspoken subtext of that bit in the manual is that the chain reaction is unavoidable. That said, I suppose a mechanism that automatically throws the beam off target in some figure-8 would be enough to prevent the reaction even if you pointed the gun at one spot and held down the trigger, basically doing what you can do manually now.

...except that in very close quarters that might not make enough of a difference, while making the weapon useless at long range...

My headcanon these days (HD and vanilla) is that medikits are actually flat and soft like an ice pack, and the top bit is actually a carry/peel-open tab instead of the top side of a deep microwave-like box. :V (Also implicit in HD: each pickup contains 2 uses, so if a kit is twice the size of a stim you should able to carry the same number of doses)


Togglable nightvis is definitely a thing I would like to do. I'll probably need to do some ACS to track usage though. If this goes through I'll probably use cells, with subsequent goggle pickups adding to your partially-spent cell supply.


As for making the shotgun switchable, that's what I had in mind actually. Possibly something along the lines of a 1/300 chance of jamming if you try to shoot within 2-4 tics of your last shot? There could be a relatively high chance of the action failing or jamming, but that could be a result of warped or defective shells - since they're not even being kept in boxes anymore that's hardly unlikely.

(Mag-fed shotgun is just too much of a hassle to make right now, SMG is only in because alpha had it and Liberator because I wanted something matching my original vision for the HD rifle before I actually started reading up on the problems associated with caseless ammo)


Thanks everyone for the feedback re: Vulcanette alternate ROF. I guess I'll leave it as it is absent any compelling reason to remove or change it.

Although... would it make things more worthwhile or interesting if the difference were, instead of 2 tics versus 4, it were 1 tic (ZM66 burst ROF) versus 3 (fullauto ROF on both rifles and SMG)?
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Big C » Mon May 26, 2014 2:22 pm

Vaecrius wrote:Vulcanette sprite is just a scaled-down Doom chaingun - a huge part of the sprite is actually hidden in vanilla.


Oh, I knew that---what I was asking was why you just used the original sprite, modified, instead of that minigun-rifle in that Pimp My Gun knockoff.

At this point I think the RL is good as it is, so any balancing act will involve buffing other weapons.


Works for me!

The unspoken subtext of that bit in the manual is that the chain reaction is unavoidable. That said, I suppose a mechanism that automatically throws the beam off target in some figure-8 would be enough to prevent the reaction even if you pointed the gun at one spot and held down the trigger, basically doing what you can do manually now.


Oooooh, okay.

My headcanon these days (HD and vanilla) is that medikits are actually flat and soft like an ice pack, and the top bit is actually a carry/peel-open tab instead of the top side of a deep microwave-like box. :V (Also implicit in HD: each pickup contains 2 uses, so if a kit is twice the size of a stim you should able to carry the same number of doses)


Ahhhh, okay. I thought the medkits presently only ever gave one, but maybe I wasn't counting right.

There was this picture of a special medkit device in real life (or a prototype, anyway) that allowed combat medics to directly put a bunch of healing agents/coagulants directly into gunshot wounds, and I'd put it here, except I can't find it now. \o/

Togglable nightvis is definitely a thing I would like to do. I'll probably need to do some ACS to track usage though. If this goes through I'll probably use cells, with subsequent goggle pickups adding to your partially-spent cell supply.


That works.

...Now I'm wondering if the Vulcanette should use cell energy to power the spinning...

As for making the shotgun switchable, that's what I had in mind actually. Possibly something along the lines of a 1/300 chance of jamming if you try to shoot within 2-4 tics of your last shot? There could be a relatively high chance of the action failing or jamming, but that could be a result of warped or defective shells - since they're not even being kept in boxes anymore that's hardly unlikely.

(Mag-fed shotgun is just too much of a hassle to make right now, SMG is only in because alpha had it and Liberator because I wanted something matching my original vision for the HD rifle before I actually started reading up on the problems associated with caseless ammo)


That works, although now I'm wondering what kind of modern-day semi-auto shotgun would have wood furniture.

Maybe it'd be a descendant of this little number, but with a secondary pump action for reliability's sake, plus a bigger mag.

Thanks everyone for the feedback re: Vulcanette alternate ROF. I guess I'll leave it as it is absent any compelling reason to remove or change it.

Although... would it make things more worthwhile or interesting if the difference were, instead of 2 tics versus 4, it were 1 tic (ZM66 burst ROF) versus 3 (fullauto ROF on both rifles and SMG)?


That works. I always thought it was odd that the highest setting on a belt-fed support weapon would be slower than the burst-fire rate on an assault rifle. Or why the 'slower' setting would be even slower than the original AK-47 (which had a ROF of 600 RPM or so).

Having it go 'fast' and 'FASTER' sounds more entertaining anyway. :P
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby twinkieman93 » Mon May 26, 2014 3:12 pm

Yeah, I always imagined the medkits in HD contain a more refined version of those fancy new chitosan bandages they have nowadays. Chitosan almost immediately clots nearly any wound, and is naturally antiseptic, so you can just slap that thing on the wound with no prior treatment and boom, bleeding's stopped. When they tested it on pigs, wounds that would otherwise be 100% fatal were rendered easily survivable. Going along with the flat packet description, and having two uses per packet, it's probably got two big sheets of chitosan bandages that can be ripped up and sized to fit any wound a solder could incur in combat. One sheet is enough to treat any number of wounds that wouldn't instantly kill someone.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Matt » Mon May 26, 2014 3:32 pm

Just for the record:

35*60=2100 tics per minute

so 1 shot every 2 tics is 1050 rpm, 1 shot every 3 tics is 700, 4 tics is 525.

According to wiki, 2100 rpm just happens to be exactly the same firing rate as the G11's 3-round salvo.

My main reasons so far for not making the Vulcanette go that fast:
- The Vulcanette was always intended to be a small-arms SAW rather than an anti-materiel weapon.
- Relatedly, "game balance".
- It would be impossible to animate the rotation at 1 rpm without using that awkward sprite where the bullet seems to be coming out from between two barrels.
- The way it's set up right now it's a bit of a hassle to try to get it to not shoot twice.

That said, changing the paradigm so the difference is no longer "suck" versus "pretty frickin' sweet" but rather "standard" versus "abject, wanton hoplorrhoea" seems to be the more prudent gameplay/worldbuilding consideration at this point. (Really, personally my only reason for a 525 rpm mode is the vanilla Doom callback.)

As for cells... actually that might be a thing. o_o


As for aesthetics, just keep in mind I hate doing sprites and everyone complains how hideous they are when I finally set aside a weekend to get some done, and they take up a lot of space, so I basically always rely on stock sprites when available. (Heck, at this point I might well just use a desaturated, scaled Liberator first-person sprite for the ZM66.)
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Abba Zabba » Mon May 26, 2014 3:35 pm

I finally remembered that one crucial thing in HD that really bugged me; Vaecrius, do you think you can allow weapon switching to work while you're holding the sprint button, pretty pretty please? Almost like putting the weapon selected on cue for when you release, as you already have whatever you were holding put away, if anything. There are a few times I got killed since I had to fumble around with a clingy weapon instead of having the one I want selected out when I'm done fleeing from some terrifying creature.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby twinkieman93 » Mon May 26, 2014 4:14 pm

Vaecrius wrote:As for cells... actually that might be a thing. o_o

It would give me a reason to not just camp corners, shout "STUPID! YOU'RE SO STUPID!", and then wind it up and wait for all comers. It would certainly make me think twice before using it in Doom Episode 1, due to the complete absence of energy cells.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Big C » Mon May 26, 2014 6:26 pm

Vaecrius wrote:According to wiki, 2100 rpm just happens to be exactly the same firing rate as the G11's 3-round salvo.

My main reasons so far for not making the Vulcanette go that fast:
- The Vulcanette was always intended to be a small-arms SAW rather than an anti-materiel weapon.
- Relatedly, "game balance".
- It would be impossible to animate the rotation at 1 rpm without using that awkward sprite where the bullet seems to be coming out from between two barrels.
- The way it's set up right now it's a bit of a hassle to try to get it to not shoot twice.

That said, changing the paradigm so the difference is no longer "suck" versus "pretty frickin' sweet" but rather "standard" versus "abject, wanton hoplorrhoea" seems to be the more prudent gameplay/worldbuilding consideration at this point. (Really, personally my only reason for a 525 rpm mode is the vanilla Doom callback.)


That's fine, I suppose.

As for cells... actually that might be a thing. o_o


It would be a good way to balance out higher rates of fire on the Vulcanette! And would make the ZM66 rifle somewhat more valuable as a non-battery-powered use for the caseless ammo.

As for aesthetics, just keep in mind I hate doing sprites and everyone complains how hideous they are when I finally set aside a weekend to get some done, and they take up a lot of space, so I basically always rely on stock sprites when available. (Heck, at this point I might well just use a desaturated, scaled Liberator first-person sprite for the ZM66.)


I wasn't criticizing the present Vulcanette sprites, I was just curious.

And all things considered I like the present sprites, especially those for the Liberator. It looks sturdier than the ZM66, which looks light and space-agey.

The graphics serve the gameplay here. And besides, some of the eye candy (like how you do fire and some of the enemy deaths for the bosses) is legitimately cool, especially the Cyberdemon. SO FUCKING METAL.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Matt » Mon May 26, 2014 7:35 pm

Okay, that sounded way more bitter than it should. ^^; It was more of a warning to everyone suggesting things that would require the creation of any brand-new graphic resource. (Glad to know that the other, non-spriting eye-candy is appreciated nonetheless!)

The V'nette is becoming very, very complex now with the cells and everything...
(and at some point I should probably sit down and overhaul all the reload functions to take advantage of ZDoom features that did not exist back when I first wrote them. Maybe then I could also incorporate LG's request, as right now everything hinges on a check for whether NullWeapon is out.)
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Abba Zabba » Mon May 26, 2014 9:44 pm

Bug: arachnotron obituary has the player's name instead of krang or whatever it was before.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Matt » Tue May 27, 2014 1:17 am

Unable to replicate but the next release may fix it anyway.

That said, new Vulcanette and Hunter paradigms, and togglable goggles, are now done.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Slax » Tue May 27, 2014 3:20 pm

Here we go again. :roll:

How abooout... a harder hitting pistol. Something like a 1911 or a revolver. Another close combat backup. High damage up close but a lot of it drops off with range. .45ACP would be a good choice. Great for brutalizing heads (if headshots were a thing) and still good for center mass blasting. Somewhat poor armor piercing capabilities, causes lots of bleeding damage.

Think I'll keep suggesting these things simply because the chaingun just isn't my thing. Sooo slooow moooving. Gotta keep those feet dancing.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Big C » Tue May 27, 2014 6:45 pm

Slax wrote:Here we go again. :roll:

How abooout... a harder hitting pistol. Something like a 1911 or a revolver. Another close combat backup. High damage up close but a lot of it drops off with range. .45ACP would be a good choice. Great for brutalizing heads (if headshots were a thing) and still good for center mass blasting. Somewhat poor armor piercing capabilities, causes lots of bleeding damage.

Think I'll keep suggesting these things simply because the chaingun just isn't my thing. Sooo slooow moooving. Gotta keep those feet dancing.


Honestly I think the Slayer fits the 'high-powered sidearm' role adequately given its quick draw time, portability and strong punch.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby Somagu » Tue May 27, 2014 8:11 pm

Slax wrote:Here we go again. :roll:

How abooout... a harder hitting pistol. Something like a 1911 or a revolver. Another close combat backup. High damage up close but a lot of it drops off with range. .45ACP would be a good choice. Great for brutalizing heads (if headshots were a thing) and still good for center mass blasting. Somewhat poor armor piercing capabilities, causes lots of bleeding damage.

Think I'll keep suggesting these things simply because the chaingun just isn't my thing. Sooo slooow moooving. Gotta keep those feet dancing.


While I love 1911s and revolvers, I feel like pistol ammo is already actually pretty uncommon as it is, so I feel like an alternate pistol type in the same way as bolts or battle rifle ammo would be ridiculously uncommon. I'd be OK with this if it was something like a really kicky revolver that did about as much damage as a shotgun shell.

The other problem we run into is resources. Also, weapon bloat.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [last update dated May 25, 2014]

Postby ArchXeno » Tue May 27, 2014 8:59 pm

I feel that there are enough weapons for now. I got pretty far in yomi.wad without even looking twice at the SMG.
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