Hideous Destructor 4.10.0b

[mumblemumble]

IIRC, spooky was the higher enemy damage, faster enemies, and other crap of grimdark, with ugly spawn rates.

[twinkieman93]

The new TB feels more like an alternative RL than its own unique thing. You trade an alternate grenade mode for an alternate assault rifle mode. Otherwise how you use the weapon is pretty similar, all things considered, the TB is just generally more finicky to use due to its quirks of operation which in my mind just makes the RL the better option; if I'm going to die I want it to be because I made a mistake, not because my weapon is a janky prototype and doesn't want to cooperate with me.

[Silentdarkness12]

Idk, I like the ThunderBuster as it currently is. It sits comfortably in between assault weapon and rocket launcher, doing great at neither, but not horribly, too.

[Somagu]

; if I'm going to die I want it to be because I made a mistake, not because my weapon is a janky prototype and doesn't want to cooperate with me.

Funny, that's why I never use the ZM66.

[Matt]

I'm trying not to tweak the weapons too much atm since once I've resolved the latest issues I want to scriptify everything - which is going to take a while to say the least.

Lost Episodes are loading fine for me on latest devbuild of HD and GZDoom 3.1.0. Will try latest GZD commit shortly.
EDIT: Tried on latest commit of both HD [7ad951a] and GZD [1562d64]. No crash.

[twinkieman93]

; if I'm going to die I want it to be because I made a mistake, not because my weapon is a janky prototype and doesn't want to cooperate with me.

Funny, that's why I never use the ZM66.

The difference is that the ZM66 can be worked with by simply not going full auto with it all the time. I can count the occasions it has jammed on me for no discernible reason out of the blue on one hand, and I think I've only overheated it, like, twice. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe I haven't played nearly as much of this mod as some people, but in my experience simple trigger discipline works around the weapon's problems quite nicely. If my ZM66 jammed and I died from it, there's a very good chance it was indeed because I made a mistake and mishandled the weapon.

The TB is an entirely different beast which can malfunction for a wide variety of reasons, including you moving, your firing position moving, your target moving, something other than your target moving in the way, your weapon moving, your battery being too low... everything has to stay perfectly still and play along with the TB for it to work properly. It's less severe than it was previously but it's still a massive hindrance to use, and for it to then underperform compared to the RL is just kind of lame. Its altfire is now no better than your more mundane options too, I would likely get just as much mileage out of the ZM66 or the Libby if I wanted something that can be fired rapidly with reasonable accuracy.

The only scenario where I could see someone wanting to use the TB over the RL is in a carry game, where having a weapon that can do two things is always a nice thing to have; I would argue, though, that if you want an automatic weapon and a heavier duty explosive option in one package, the ZM66 with an underslung GL is probably the better option assuming you treat them right, which is a far easier proposition than trying to use the TB. At the very least the TB lets you do both with one ammo pool; still, I'd stick with the ZM66 with a GL.

[Silentdarkness12]

in my experience simple trigger discipline works around the weapon's problems quite nicely.

^^^

I'm trying not to tweak the weapons too much atm since once I've resolved the latest issues I want to scriptify everything - which is going to take a while to say the least.

Lost Episodes are loading fine for me on latest devbuild of HD and GZDoom 3.1.0. Will try latest GZD commit shortly.
EDIT: Tried on latest commit of both HD [7ad951a] and GZD [1562d64]. No crash.

Yes, yes, I see that. It was the previous devbuild that was crashing this.

[Matt]

Hopefully that crash has been resolved then.

New release to fix the bugs mumbles mentioned, and rebalancing the TB (which should be slightly OP at this point).

[twinkieman93]

I gave the new TB a try, at least in a purely testing capacity, and I have to say I like it. Being able to get out that many thunderbolts so quickly puts it on par with the RL when you consider how touchy the gun can be. It has the bonus of carrying more shots in total in exchange for rooting you to the ground, heavily obscuring your view(that screen shake is *nuts* but I kinda like it, I just wish it didn't clip all the way through the floor), and otherwise just being a PITA. Sorta reminds me of the Brontornis except with a bunch of somewhat smaller attacks instead of one big ridiculously destructive one; both require you to remain rooted in place in their own way.

My opinion will probably shift with more serious actual-in-combat use, but yeah.

[Somagu]

"Trigger discipline"

Yeah, thanks, I appreciate the confidence. It jams on semi-auto with spaced shots and clean mags. Usually my first mag into a new update. I never use it on full-auto, and most of the time it jams on the first or second shot of a burst spaced between 2-3 seconds, or semi fire with pauses of a third to a half of a second. But, no, I'm sure that I'm a trigger happy loon.

[Matt]

Spam and bursts will make it worse, but ultimately there's always going to be a luck factor.

The ZM is my own most frequently used go-to weapon (those extra 20 rounds per mag add up) and I can go for weeks without a jam, or get one with my first shot after I spawn.

[mumblemumble]

I admit I SHAMELESSLY run around with a zm on full auto to deal with revenants, groups, hell knights, mancubi, or anything nastier than an imp. Sure, I get less kills per round than on semi, but putting tons of rounds down range on a light platform is well worth it : and while it jams, thats what my pistol, or other weapons are for. Besides, auto jam rate really isn't that bad, I can go through multiple magazines on auto with no trouble, but burst I only use on sniping attempts for irritating zombies in the distance, since it jams so catastrophically often. This isn't to say I don't occasionally get killed, but I've found I rely on semi for ammo preservation more than jam protection : its just more efficient to 2 tap zombies and imps than to fire off a 4 round spray on auto, which is a nice side effect of the crit system vae developed. its also because apparently the ZM does a bit more damage when "cold" than hot, due to the expanding metal from heat (neat touch vae) but a spray of ammo sometimes is just necessary.

What gets me is I've honestly not used the pump mode intentionally for the shotgun in a year in HD : once you figure out how to work it, pump is flat INFERIOR to semi entirely, short of cathartic releases. Seriously, once you learn the causes of it (trying to fire too fast, releasing the trigger too fast, ect) you can make the semi mode function on 100% effectiveness, AS LONG as you don't fuck up: and I honestly love using the hunter to slay cacos, revenents, ninja pirates, and anything thats not a boss character. I'm honestly surprised more people don't use it on semi as its less jerky than pumping, more accurate, faster, handles better....just so long as you don't screw up. The biggest risks are either firing too fast (should be absolutely no faster than around 3 rounds per second, maybe slightly slower) OR releasing the trigger too fast : if these 2 things are avoided, I find that failure to feeds simply do not happen with the hunter whatsoever. The BIGGEST thing is the trap of how fast you can fire vs how fast you SHOULD fire. the hunter fires flawlessly at just over 2 shots per second, but under 3 per second, and while it CAN potentially go faster, going faster opens up the jam risk. And to those wondering, I just tested with 100 shells on the range and had not a single jam when using the rules above.

I'm not even complaining to be clear vae : I really like having a weapon that WILL function and do its job IF under good conditions : almost makes me wonder if you could do similar things for the zm66 with velocity checks, so if the gun is stable and not being jostled it performs fine, but if running turning fast, falling, ducking, or in some kind of liquid, the jam chance rises. This way careful, planted on your ass shots might never jam, but shooting on burst while spinning like a madman and running through slime is begging for a jam even more than now.

Another thought, is perhaps something akin to the reload of gears of war : except rather than loading faster, trying to seat the magazine proper : I figure the magazines of the zm would be crappy and fragile with an aluminum casing, easily bent frame due to mass producing and disposability, and I could see this being screwed either with a jail broken mag (which is already the case) or a magazine loaded either in a panic, or when injured, bending the aluminim and screwing up the feeding of the rounds. This isn't a great idea, infact after typing, it seems lame...but its an idea.

But regardless, I wonder if you could, or already have, given the zm a treatment to make it more jam resistant with proper usage BESIDES putting it on semi : another thing I do is pull my gun "down" right before I fire to absorb recoil a little, particularly on auto (i use auto in combat with the zm to about 10-15 yards regularly) and I wonder if this approach to control jostling could also be an influencing factor in jamming (or already is???). It would make sense too, adjusting pitch, roll, and yaw could potentially throw off all the tiny moving parts, bullet included, especially with caseless rounds presumably being so brittle. Because the zm TRULY does seem random while the hunter has a method to the madness.

By the way, do the fragments on grenades inherit the velocity of the grenade on detonation?

[Matt]

That sort of fine distinction for weapon maintenance is definitely going to have to wait until all the weapons are scriptified.

What you're seeing with the Hunter is pretty much the effect I'm going for. For me the pump is just a failsafe in case of a jam or a really bad load (which should be able happen at some point randomly though it should be disappearingly rare given how powerful any shotgun blast is)

Fragments do inherit grenade momentum, though it's usually negligible.

[mumblemumble]

I see... 2 new bugs also

First, trying to open a booby trapped box raises your heart rate...for some reason...Seriously I almost died of a heart attack due to opening one. This is actually pretty funny as I imagine doom guy panicking thinking its a bomb, but this is probably not intended right?

And second, the feature of saving the med-kit is useful, except now I cannot use multiple second flesh without completely using up the staple gun from the first package. . I almost think making second flesh its own "item" would be a better bet, as it would open up room for finer medical control, and mean less spaghetti with the current setup perhaps. And I still like the idea of pain killers / mild muscle relaxers as a sort of counter point to the stims : something which helps healing, but slows one down, and would be a possible treatment for fatal heart attacks / drug overdoses.

Reason why I asked about frags is, while negligible, its like a natural defense to the user : if not, the user would be more likely to be fragged from a closerange shot, but with the inheritance, it pulls all shrapnel trajectory slightly forward : away from the user. I just wanted to be sure that was in, because 1, its realistic, and 2, it makes my dumb ass less likely to get blown up.

[Silentdarkness12]

Regarding the hunter, I could swear that the semi fire on there is actually noticably less accurate than with the pump. This leads me to use the pump mode to shoot an enemy at mid range, and only use semi fire if they're fairly close by.