Hideous Destructor 4.10.0b

[Matt]

I'm just gonna say that this whole jam-on-deselect thing is definitely a bug in HD, not an in-story bug in the ZM66, and I think I know how to fix it.

The bottom line with the long guns is that you have to work harder to maintain weapon retention and keep pointing it at the other guy. It's a little bit skewed against the player but fixing it is relatively low priority right now.

[Azba]

second, unless the gun was literally ripped from your hand then the gun would remain in hand, and still be semi maneuverable. Something like an ssg, even just half pointed at a ninja pirate would be effective at scaring them off, bare minimum (etc. snipped for brevity)

Otherwise, you should imagine babuins and ninja pirates latching onto your arm pressing against or otherwise maneuvering your rifle or other weapon into you and away from them, effectively making longer weapons useless.

Basically this ^ is exactly what I was going for. Yes maybe you could awkwardly wrestle some of the shorter 2-handed guns into range in a real situation, but that's kinda out of the scope of HD as a doom mod - however you can kinda do this already if you abuse your mouse since it takes a little bit for the "weapon bumping" mechanics to kick in and you might have a chance to fire before it realizes your gun can't be there.
Also you're being bitten this whole time, which doesn't help.

Imagine that you are being bear-hugged by a really friendly gorilla, and then think about how difficult it would be to position the barrel of, say, a generic AR somewhere where it can hit the gorilla properly - and probably with the use of just one hand. You might have less trouble with the suggested sawn off shotgun since it won't be as long, but they're still pretty long in comparison to a pistol, since you still need to allow length for the mag tube on pump/semi actions, not to mention the big fat stock on the back still being there and probably getting in the way. With the break action shotgun it's still got a huge stock in the back and you typically don't want to cut into the furniture, so the barrels still extend a good ways off in front.

[mumblemumble]

Actually I was thinking a sawn off double. Less power, but a shotgun that's roughly pistol length.

Come to think of it, sawing apart different guns would be interesting... Sawn off vulcanette anyone? Overheat risk, rediculous recoil, and better movement.

In all seriousness i don't expect a Sawn off vulcanette, but I'll be damned if a shorty minigun doesn't make me smile

[Serathis]

Seems to me burst accuracy needs a nerf for jackboots, unless braced, it seems i can't par their accuracy especially for quickly done shots.

Any chance we could ever get smoke grenades? I feel they would be a massive boon to the player, assuming you could make ai inhibited by smoke, either not shooting, or assuming suppressive fire into the smoke. Would be very interesting if paired with a stealth system too.

An idea for derp and possibly herp. Could we get a detection range setting? Speaking of which, derps seem off lately, very unenthusiastic about shooting, at least in my download a few days ago. Have you tested them recently?

The double fire for the ssg i think would be much better as a toggle than hold function, perhaps a switch you slide forward to connect both trigger mechanisms. Would be much more ergonomic.

Current movement rate on 3d floors is not normal, i think the ledge detection counts 3d floors as 1 big ledge, which really makes several maps unplayable.

^this

[Azba]

Actually I was thinking a sawn off double. Less power, but a shotgun that's roughly pistol length.

That's what I meant by the break action. I guess technically you could saw it off to be pistol length but good god I'm not sure that's anything even resembling safe.

[potetobloke]

I guess technically you could saw it off to be pistol length but good god I'm not sure that's anything even resembling safe.

Probably something like this.

[mumblemumble]

Yeah... Basically i feel this raises the need for pdw's in general. Though one idea that could help, what if 1 foot and under, guns did more damage from the gunpowder burning? This would help balance ninja pirates a little since pistols at melee range would be slightly buffed. And it makes sense really. Just something like a 15% damage bump for all gunpowder weapons at point blank

Though i think vae is on one of his "hd is too easy lets make everything more dangerous" binges too.

Edit : come to think about it, this would be a great way to buff the ssg slightly. And would give players an edge in all cqc in general.

[Caligari87]

If it were me, I'd turn the ZM66 into a short-barreled PDW with slightly higher recoil (would fit its ammo type) and let the SMG take the mid-range low-recoil role (think an MP5 with a scope). but that doesn't really fit in lore.

The problem here is y'all are trying to justify some way avoid switching away from your long guns when a rabid pitbull latches onto your arm. That doesn't really work IRL so why would it work here? That's what pistols are for, and guess what? We already have a PDW! The auto-pistol! The only thing we really need then is the ability for pistols to accept SMG mags and vice-versa, which strictly speaking isn't impossible (the Criss Vector using Glock magazines for example).

[Matt]

The requirement for different mags is mostly just me not wanting to keep track of them separately for each weapon.

I may revisit this "later".

[mumblemumble]

I've honestly thought about a short smg style 4mil as well, that would make an amazing suppression weapon, even if the recoil was nasty.

The problem with the auto pistol is its still extremely rare. I'd absolutely love them for ninja pirates, but short of starting with 1, i cannot find one at all. I'd certainly think at least higher rank zombies like jackboots, chaingunners, and certainly marines would have them.

And i still say a folding stock would be helpful for the smg. They are standard fair on smgs these days, and a short smg like an uzi would be better acclimated to close encounters. In fact, uzis are standard for use in Israel police offices and secret service for this exact reason. Because they need firepower that isn't bulky and unwieldy, but is more fierce than a semi automatic.

[Matt]

I've always assumed that was a folding stock on the pickup sprite, but looking at the encumbrance numbers again I guess not.

....and it should definitely be less bulky than the ZM66 o_O

Will change.

EDIT: No, wait, that 120 is including the long mag that turns the gun into this awkward T-shape. Nevermind.

[Abba Zabba]

Would the best course of action for spirit armor be to make whatever threshold it uses for RNG rolls, lower? It's just so odd and immersion breaking. For example, Nemesis (MAP 11) of Alien Vendetta, I plinked from the cave window at the head of an archvile from the tower off in the distance, and aggro'd it, eventually allowing me to grab its megasphere. Proceeded to pick it up, turn my back to some far off mancs that can launch napalm for miles, get immolated, then proceed to trudge about while not dying. It's like some sort of awful HD hell that is an actual hell. On a related note too, it seems once fire reaches a certain high point of immolation, it absolutely will not go away until you die or it consumes enough HP or something; happens with spirit armor and god mode. There's a stubborn last bit of flame that does a truckload of damage once it's able to.

[Matt]

I'm still trying to think of a good solution for that. Basically flames go out after the tracker has observed enough gibbing damage to a corpse, or the body in question has become sufficiently cold. Neither of these really happen when you can't die.

The odd thing though is that I think of this less as hell and more like the burning bush that God revealed himself to Moses in...

(so yeah fire is wip)

[mumblemumble]

So if we play as George W Bush and get caught on fire with a megasphere we are... Just joking of course, being silly.

I don't think you understand what i mean about the folding stock so I'll lay it flat. Why can't we fold the stock with the zoom weapon function, for better movement, cqc ability (no lowering) general handling and swiftness of aiming, and possibly even smaller block value (i mean, its more compact) in exchange for worse recoil, less steady, and worse recoil from bracing? I'd absolutely love this, a simple change which would make the smg much more versatile, able to effectively function as a short rifle, or a large automatic pistol. Its also not at all a stretch in realism, as its a common feature in smgs everywhere, to be able to transfer from good handling, to precision.

Fire balance I'm iffy with, imps seem more dangerous than the previous random fire. Have you factored in crits with immolation? I figur a glancing fireball would make a BIG difference, like, between barely producing smoke, to being taking burn damage immediately. It feels like we currently always get burnt for 30 or so damage, and I'm not really happy with that, overall imps feel extremely buffed, since before fire burned slowly, and you could take several and survive, even if the first lit you, but now a cluster is always fatal. I think that perhaps a single glancing fireball should do no damage with armor, as its insulating, and flame retardant, but that a good hit, or multiple should start burning through. Also, perhaps you could take a bit from team fortress classic, with multiple burn damage levels, like firewood, embers, and a furnace. So perhaps a small hit keeps you hot for a bit, and vulnerable to followups, but does much less burn damage, but enough to cause 4th degree burns. As a reference again, ill bring in my experience in metalworking again. I once had to transfer freshly plasma cut metal, around the temperature of a medium stove. Hot enough to kill, but with leather gloves. The first few i felt nothing, but after the 4th and fifth, I ended up with my gloves spewing smoke, and my hands in pain. I still was undamaged, but It hurt. My point is, transfering takes time, due to the heat source, conductivity of surroundings materials, flash point (Kevlar, and certainly ceramic is flame retardant) of said material, duration, and everything else. We don't have any real numbers on the imp fireballs, but i like to think of them as plasma bubbles, that pop on target and transfer all heat immediately like an electric discharge (ever see a guy electrocuted on a power line? He immediately, but briefly, catches on fire). So I'd think imps would work like that, causing an extremely intense, but sudden burn, with no fuel residue. Fuel residue is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT as, unless you got everything to the point of sustained combustion, it wouldn't remain on fire after the blow, but burn damage would remain. So perhap imps SHOULD be instant damage, at least for some fireballs, but it should depend on the heat levels of the person, armor, ect. Molten lead doesn't hurt an ice cold hand because, despite the lead being 900 f, the hand takes a little bit to "cook" to damaging levels, past 40,60,80,100 f... So despite the heat, if its instant and brief, its different. Mancubi however are gasoline based, which burns hot, but not as hot as a plasma torch (imp level heat?) BUT burns much more constantly, coating like napalm (lol...) and gets everywhere. I'd think this would do less immediate damage, but would cause sustained heat from being doused in gas to keep it burning. This might get less hot, but it would cause consistent heat, which might burn a person MORE. BASICALLY, compare a short energy jolt of live wires to being doused in gas, the wires are hotter, but very brief, while the gas is less hot, but much more sustained, like an oven. Its like putting chicken in an oven compared to taking a blowtorch to the outside for a few seconds. On cooks better, despite being colder.

I also think perhaps mancubi shots should have fall off for damage on account of gas is burning as it flies, and has less fuel the further it goes. I also wonder if you could change lava for this, and give the rad suit a high temperature resistance (and presumably very high conductivity) so that imps have a possibility to damage it, and most certainly balefire, but all but point blank mancubi would be pointless against it, since its designed for high heat, and only high velocity out of the cannons would risk ripping it.

Conductivity by the way, means how quickly heat alters. Copper for instance is a good conductor, being quick to heat and cool, while ceramic is very slow to heat, but to cool too.

https://www.ansellpro.com/auto/faq2.asp

Question 8 covers Kevlar, apparently resistant up to 400 in some cases, and this would be enough to stop ITSELF from being damaged, but conductivity is what REALLY matters. Kevlar is a somewhat poor conductor, while human flesh is pretty good. This means Kevlar is slow to heat and cool while flesh is fast. I'd think you would have a limited resistance to fire completely for brief exposure and time to cool back down, similar to how it was a week ago. But multiple hits would probably damage your armor, and cook you inside of it, giving 4th degree burns, even after fire went away, as Kevlar is still cooking flesh as its cooling off as if it hits 400,that slowly cooks you inside it, probably slower than current, but still enough to damage, unless it gets hotter.

I suppose maybe imp balls could leave some resudue, but I'm not sure.

Oh also, because i know you are a cruel bastard, i have another idea. Kevlar has a melting point. And this is potentially extremely dangerous. See in welding, we always wore cotton or leather for 1 extremely important reasons. Those burn and don't melt. See, if something melt, it sticks, and burns, and fuses, so even if you survived getting burned, you have something melted to your skin and removing it will cause severe injury, and keeping it there risks severe infection. So what if being burnt with Kevlar did the same under intense heat, eventually melting, damaging the Kevlar, causing removal to be slow, painful, and cause damage (and make the player scream from skin ripping apart) and causing high lethal damage on removal requiring multiple second flesh?.. I suppose the composite armor would be immune, but this would be a real issue for Kevlar. It would make fire effectively demoralizing for the player in game if this happened, which is entirely the point of fire.

Also, fire really wouldn't be immediately lethal, it would put you out of commission, but you would be alive for a far bit longer before you lost consciousness. People who get necklaced in Africa are seen being cognitive even after their face is burned to a crisp, before the infection and other things kill. It would be interesting if a burned player could indeed stay alive, but practically useless for a slightly longer time, unable to stand or crawl, but possibly able to fire a pistol, but little else. Perhaps having imps torturing them, and possibly even the torture manifesting a vile shard due to the sheer bad energy created from it if its dragged out.

Also, from what I've seen about flame troopers, shouldn't mancubi be a tan more combustible? Like maybe glands filled with gasoline, that spill everywhere on death, and can start a fire afterwards, or perhaps an igniting shot like the tb could make them explode like a propane canister.

.... Boy, i touched some pretty morbid shit there, sorry.

As for the megasphere, I'd base it off of a substantially raised temperature tolerance, as well as the increased damage tolerance. So small fires are able to be ignored, almost like a super hero brushing embers off his arms, while extremely harsh fires are capable of downing him.

By the way, is your fire system indeed based off regular temperatures? I thought so but now I'm not so sure.

I'd honestly have an armor / radsuit layer, skin later, and have every material given a "degrade" point, and an ignition point, conductivity, and fuel saturation stats, and give all fire attacks a heat, a fuel saturation stat, and make temperature level out to current temperature based on conductivty and environment (damage obviously included) and make higher temperature differences more exponentially increase the speed of heating up / cooling down.

.... Also, how about a canteen to put out fires, and possibly refresh nerve a little? I find it hilarious the idea of pouring out a canteen on a marine to save them, or possibly pouring water on self to extinguish fire. I figure its more lore friendly than a fire extinguisher, is more readily replaceable than a chemical extinguisher, and more lore friendly.... Plus, maybe the player could "bless" a full canteen with a soul sphere to make a canteen of potion, basically... Just a thought. Dousing a person with potion water to extinguish fire and seal wounds

[Serathis]

You know, there are SMGs with folding magazines as a well as folding stocks. Could help reduce bulk at the cost of longer switch time.