Hideous Destructor 4.10.0b

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Matt
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Matt »

Arco wrote:
Matt wrote:Were those the heavily edited Doom sounds rather than the ones from the Sound Bible?
I believe it was the heavily modified doom sounds that were used, I know the exact sounds you're talking about with the latter but those aren't the ones that I'm thinking about.
Are these it?
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Arco
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Arco »

Matt wrote:
Arco wrote:
Matt wrote:Were those the heavily edited Doom sounds rather than the ones from the Sound Bible?
I believe it was the heavily modified doom sounds that were used, I know the exact sounds you're talking about with the latter but those aren't the ones that I'm thinking about.
Are these it?
Yeah, those are it.

It doesn't sound quite as loud as the old versions though. I think there was a second sound that played whenever the ZM-66 or shotgun was fired.
Here's a video of what I mean whenever the ZM is fired:
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Retraux Squid
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Retraux Squid »

I'm warming up to the Liberator a bit- I love the recoil for making it feel like a proper 7.76 firearm and not a disguised .223 like many video game battle rifles- but I still think the damage is a bit too weak. Instant kill on all non-armored zombies (chaingunners and Marines, these would only have a chance of insta-death on a shot, like all zombies presently) and perhaps imps seems right to me. I'd do this myself but I'm a bit frightened of editing HD's weapons given how complex their behaviors are.

Some ideas about weapons I cooked up while playing today:

- A squad support weapon in the vein of the RPK, firing 7.76mm ammo. I could see it as a version of the Liberator battle rifle configured for LMG role, with a long barrel, bipod, and club stock, as well as a large 7.76 drum magazine. This weapon would be a fairly rare replacement of the Vulcanette's spawn, or perhaps the Liberator's, since they'd be in the same family. It would be somewhat hard to get ammo for, and heavy, but with powerful shots and an in-built recoil compensation system, it would be a serviceable alternative to the Vulcanette for delivering heavy firepower.

- An energy pistol. Though this blaster would be basically recoilless and have quite a large "magazine" with a cell loaded, it would not be especially strong, basically making it an improved variant of the 9x19 ballistic pistol at the cost of ammo availability. Instead of the particle-based system of the Thunder Buster, it would utilize an experimental "contained plasma field" technology allowing it to fire small spheres of coherent plasma in the same fashion as the balefire that Imps throw. That, and you could make enemies run around screaming and on fire just like Imps do to you.

- A grenade that contains lethal poison gas. Your helmet filters it out but enemies don't. Marine zombies and jackboots- along with any enemy assumed to have a helmet, gas mask, or modified breathing system such as an Arachnotron or Cyberdemon- would be immune to this gas, but things like imps and basic zombie troopers would die like flies. The gas cloud would linger for a little while before dissipating, longer if it's indoors. I'm not sure how to model wind but I've seen mentions of it in GZDoom Builder, perhaps this would factor in.

- A demon-made weapon of some kind. Perhaps the Unmaker or simply a demontech rifle. Would be disturbing, probably deleterious to the player's sanity to hold, and feed off of an unconventional ammo (perhaps human souls). In exchange it would be obscenely powerful against pure demons, and moderately powerful against tech-demons, though nearly useless against zombies.

EDIT: Question- are there "engineer/roboticist" type zombies that are dropping DERPs and HERPs around? I just had a DERP ping me to death from a darkened corner (full marks for whichever zombie thought that up), and it doesn't seem like it would have been naturally spawned (the thing wasn't on patrol mode, and it was hugging up against a wall). Speaking of which, could enemy DERPs be nerfed a little? HERPs are easy enough due to their stationary role and large size, but trying to hit that little sonuvabitch before it ventilates you is an exercise in futility without explosives. It'd be easy enough to explain why one was shooting less accurately or jamming, given that its user isn't exactly doing the best maintenance, being a corpse with a gun.
Last edited by Retraux Squid on Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Retraux Squid
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Retraux Squid »

Arco wrote: It doesn't sound quite as loud as the old versions though. I think there was a second sound that played whenever the ZM-66 or shotgun was fired.
Here's a video of what I mean whenever the ZM is fired:
Huh. Some of the features in that old version- such as the ability to just strip a floor rifle of its clip immediately instead of having to drop the present rifle, pick up the floor gun, unload it, drop it, and pick up your old weapon- seem quite useful.
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Silentdarkness12
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Silentdarkness12 »

Retraux Squid wrote: Some ideas about weapons I cooked up while playing today:

- A squad support weapon in the vein of the RPK, firing 7.76mm ammo. I could see it as a version of the Liberator battle rifle configured for LMG role, with a long barrel, bipod, and club stock, as well as a large 7.76 drum magazine. This weapon would be a fairly rare replacement of the Vulcanette's spawn, or perhaps the Liberator's, since they'd be in the same family. It would be somewhat hard to get ammo for, and heavy, but with powerful shots and an in-built recoil compensation system, it would be a serviceable alternative to the Vulcanette for delivering heavy firepower.

- An energy pistol. Though this blaster would be basically recoilless and have quite a large "magazine" with a cell loaded, it would not be especially strong, basically making it an improved variant of the 9x19 ballistic pistol at the cost of ammo availability. Instead of the particle-based system of the Thunder Buster, it would utilize an experimental "contained plasma field" technology allowing it to fire small spheres of coherent plasma in the same fashion as the balefire that Imps throw. That, and you could make enemies run around screaming and on fire just like Imps do to you.

- A grenade that contains lethal poison gas. Your helmet filters it out but enemies don't. Marine zombies and jackboots- along with any enemy assumed to have a helmet, gas mask, or modified breathing system such as an Arachnotron or Cyberdemon- would be immune to this gas, but things like imps and basic zombie troopers would die like flies. The gas cloud would linger for a little while before dissipating, longer if it's indoors. I'm not sure how to model wind but I've seen mentions of it in GZDoom Builder, perhaps this would factor in.

- A demon-made weapon of some kind. Perhaps the Unmaker or simply a demontech rifle. Would be disturbing, probably deleterious to the player's sanity to hold, and feed off of an unconventional ammo (perhaps human souls). In exchange it would be obscenely powerful against pure demons, and moderately powerful against tech-demons, though nearly useless against zombies.

EDIT: Question- are there "engineer/roboticist" type zombies that are dropping DERPs and HERPs around? I just had a DERP ping me to death from a darkened corner (full marks for whichever zombie thought that up), and it doesn't seem like it would have been naturally spawned (the thing wasn't on patrol mode, and it was hugging up against a wall). Speaking of which, could enemy DERPs be nerfed a little? HERPs are easy enough due to their stationary role and large size, but trying to hit that little sonuvabitch before it ventilates you is an exercise in futility without explosives. It'd be easy enough to explain why one was shooting less accurately or jamming, given that its user isn't exactly doing the best maintenance, being a corpse with a gun.
1. The 7.76 stuff is meant to be fairly rare and hard to get, as with these modern times, everyone's using them caseless 4mm rounds. It would be nigh impossible to come across a situation where it would be plausible, in my dumb opinion.

2. Anything that this plasma pistol would do, can be done equally well with the Thunderbuster. However, a semi-rare throwaway disposable plasma pistol thing might be interesting.

3. Interesting. Unsure if that's something Matt would want to do. If he's feeling tacticool, my guess would be a grenade with like...mace or some sort of crowd control gas in it. Ultra low damage, but forces full pain state.

4. Thing is, the weapons in HD are already quite powerful. Official HD Unmaker would almost seem superflouous. Then again, Matt reintroduced the blursphere recently, so that shit's up for debate, I suppose.

I don't think zombiemen of any variant drop HERPs or DERPs. Instead, hostile enemy versions of them drop. You could try to disarm and pick them up if you feel ballsy. Or just bust them, and pick up the broken ones. They'll be usable next map.
Bigger C
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Bigger C »

@Retraux Squid:

HERPs and DERPS are part of the random spawn tables, so that's where they come from.
mumblemumble
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by mumblemumble »

Well, I actually tested it for myself, the latest test, and heres my report.

Weapon bob, while cool, REALLY messes with current balance. I won't say this is a bad thing, as my usual tactic of full auto spam ZM while moving is no long ridiculously powerful as a strategy. Though I agree with knox that it needs to be scaled back according to weapon weight / length, particular for shotguns and combat rifles. long rifles, heavy guns it makes sense with, but light / short guns (pistol, smg, ssg) should get more leniency with this. Infact, this would FINALLY give the smg much needed distinction (sorry guys but the smg always seemed to me like a lame zm66 to me), This way light weapons have clear advantages for breaches and clears, while full sized rifles have obvious advantages. The pistol I think should have a wider variance in horizontal bobbing due to being one handed, almost "circling" in the hand a little, but still obviously being the most controlled. it doesn't have 2 hands to arrest the normal swaying to the left and right, but is lighter so up and down is less so, and should still have minimal movement instability, on account of being a pistol. Vulcanette could also have a little horrizontal sway, ASSUMING you indeed add a strap mode for it to stabilize it. Overall I think its good, but I thing rifles and shotguns should have their bob cut a bit. Both guns are supposed to be pretty ergonomic, and rifles in particular are a bullpup design. and shotgun in particular feels overly effected especially considering its close / mid range role. Also, Id suggest berserks obviously, and possibly spheres, reduce the accuracy even further, since they are supposed to make you more than human. But overall id generally cut the viewbob for meduim / light weapons, particularly for players ABOVE say, 70 health.

Another idea for weapon bob, is a very subtle, idle sway, put in place from breathing, heart beat, tremors, ect, which particularly effects SHORT guns like smgs and pistols, so the smg is no longer such a sniping option, since the short body would make accurate shots HARDER to make than with a long gun, regardless of firearm quality. This is actually one thing which always bugged me about the pistols, they are too damn accurate at sniping compared to a rifle, but I think giving them the HIGHEST stability, but lowest standing still accuracy would be a fair change, so long as the idle drifting would be minuscule, but enough to make sniping with non rifle weapons a challenge. Id also consider maybe factoring in turning, to make the aim unstable too?

New fire mechanic is nice, it feels like fire is a threat, but much more reliable to mitigate / deal with. Taking a single fireball is simultaneously more, and less dangerous, more in that, a single fireball will always cause fire on you, which by always is an issue, but less because this single fireball can almost always be dealt with without a full on panic situation like old fire. I also like how the hell knights are better balanced by this, but the shots that can turn back around and hit you in the back are seriously not cool. Are hell knights taking classes from revenants?

The more I play with recent updates, and especially the view bob, the more I think the TB needs an overhaul. Random movement while firing throwing off aim is a serious problem for the already extremely finicky TB, and with hideous destructors nature, getting in place to be still completely to fire is now even harder. I know I've recommended this before but, if you do any additional effects, for aiming, like an idle, minor sway, I'd seriously consider giving a tao cannon / megaman blaster type setup a try, as this would be much more forgiving to current aiming. Otherwise the TB feels increasingly inferior to other methods of destruction, at least in my opinion. it does higher damage, but with all its quirks, it feels like its pros cannot outweigh the cons anymore, as given the choice between rockets and TB, I cant see myself picking the TB currently. Its a bit of a liability with current aiming mechanics I feel. Still useful, but its not what it used to be.

Another thing to keep in mind, is perhaps redoing zombie AI a little, or AI in general. The change seems to give zombies a pretty hefty reactions advantage at long range (first corner of map10 to the nukage closets ledge, zombies seem to have a serious advantage reacting compared to me) Because zombies were balanced with the old aim code in mind, but currently zombies seem to be a bit better, I suppose part of it is me needing to get used to the aiming, but I still feel you could add a few tics to long range shots just to make it a bit more fair.
Jayrassic Park
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Jayrassic Park »

Weirdly enough, I actually think the Liberator's recoil (as of recent builds) is a lot more forgiving than actual .308 from my ill-fated date with a SCAR-H in Vegas. I swear the Liberator recoil used to be a lot heavier (though still manageable), and I actually prefer it over the ZM, even with the recent damage changes - every shot feels like it does reliably more damage than the caseless rounds. Might just be the recoil talking, though.
Bigger C
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Bigger C »

Regarding subtle weapon bob:

There's already two optional ways to do that.

One is SidDoyle's "realistic aiming" script, compatible with HD: http://www.mediafire.com/file/nvr8ls1r3 ... ealAim.pk3

Two is options -> display options -> view bob amount while not moving.

These can be combined, too!
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by LadyErisXII »

mumblemumble wrote:lot of stuff
I don't really agree with you on the "Pistol and SMG are too accurate" part. A great majority of maps are well within 50 meters, it's an extremely rare occurrence that you engage anyone past the size of a large room in most maps. Even then out 100 meters an SMG is a perfectly accurate weapon. I also think you shouldn't take the pistol being one handed in the sprite as a literal representation of how you're holding the gun, unless you want to add a alt-fire function to hold the weapon in two hands. The benefit from a rifle should come more from less velocity (and thus damage) loss past 150 meters and a much flatter trajectory, rather than ballistic accuracy itself. If we add weapon sway, if anything the SMG would have less sway than the ZM66 or Liberator because it's a lighter and easier to hold and control weapon than the rifles. There'd be no noticeable difference between the two. Otherwise I do agree the weapon bob is significantly too high for a lot of guns and could do with some tweaking.
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Retraux Squid
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Retraux Squid »

Jayrassic Park wrote:Weirdly enough, I actually think the Liberator's recoil (as of recent builds) is a lot more forgiving than actual .308 from my ill-fated date with a SCAR-H in Vegas. I swear the Liberator recoil used to be a lot heavier (though still manageable), and I actually prefer it over the ZM, even with the recent damage changes - every shot feels like it does reliably more damage than the caseless rounds. Might just be the recoil talking, though.
For me, the ZM66 is simply more reliable. I need three, four shots to kill a jackboot, but I don't care because it has so little recoil that I can just put my crosshairs back on and shoot the dumb bastard again before he can raise his weapon.

The Liberator CAN kill in one shot, but when it doesn't, it's a liability. A weapon ostensibly superior for long-range use ends up being retained for killing the biggest nasties at point-blank range, simply because the recoil flings my sights off and I have to readjust while the guy across the E1M1 courtyard is firing bursts of 4.26 ammunition at me. Combine that with the frustration of having to obsessively pick up every casing you fire (I still think it'd be 100 times less annoying if you auto-pickup them like vanilla Doom items) in order to have a chance to keep at least a few magazines loaded, and I just never ever touch Classic Rifleman as much as I'd like to. It's annoying and frustrating- not in the good, "goddamn it I'll do it again and I'll show you bastards this time" HD feel that's so enamoring, but in the "fuck this I'll just pick Rifleman" feel.
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Silentdarkness12
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Silentdarkness12 »

I kind of like the Liberator in it's current state. It's basically a high-risk, high-reward rifle. It drops enemies in fewer shots if you know what you're doing, but if you fuck up, you fuck up hard and it's usually either bad RNG, or your fault for doing something stupid.

Not every gun needs to feel like a master stroke of weapon design. cough cough sniper rifle cough cough
Jayrassic Park
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Jayrassic Park »

Retraux Squid wrote:
Jayrassic Park wrote:Weirdly enough, I actually think the Liberator's recoil (as of recent builds) is a lot more forgiving than actual .308 from my ill-fated date with a SCAR-H in Vegas. I swear the Liberator recoil used to be a lot heavier (though still manageable), and I actually prefer it over the ZM, even with the recent damage changes - every shot feels like it does reliably more damage than the caseless rounds. Might just be the recoil talking, though.
For me, the ZM66 is simply more reliable. I need three, four shots to kill a jackboot, but I don't care because it has so little recoil that I can just put my crosshairs back on and shoot the dumb bastard again before he can raise his weapon.

The Liberator CAN kill in one shot, but when it doesn't, it's a liability. A weapon ostensibly superior for long-range use ends up being retained for killing the biggest nasties at point-blank range, simply because the recoil flings my sights off and I have to readjust while the guy across the E1M1 courtyard is firing bursts of 4.26 ammunition at me. Combine that with the frustration of having to obsessively pick up every casing you fire (I still think it'd be 100 times less annoying if you auto-pickup them like vanilla Doom items) in order to have a chance to keep at least a few magazines loaded, and I just never ever touch Classic Rifleman as much as I'd like to. It's annoying and frustrating- not in the good, "goddamn it I'll do it again and I'll show you bastards this time" HD feel that's so enamoring, but in the "fuck this I'll just pick Rifleman" feel.
Vae's open ended design strikes again - I actually have an easy time reacquiring with the Liberator (I might be really used to high-caliber weapons in other FPSes), and I'm so used to policing everything for spare ammo that shell pickup is second nature to me.

That said, I do agree with you on the Liberator being kinda useless at longer ranges - I usually don't bother with engaging the enemies across the courtyard on E1M1, because both my aim sucks and it feels like missing the first shot is a waste of time (especially if I just got shot).
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Retraux Squid
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by Retraux Squid »

Jayrassic Park wrote:
Vae's open ended design strikes again - I actually have an easy time reacquiring with the Liberator (I might be really used to high-caliber weapons in other FPSes), and I'm so used to policing everything for spare ammo that shell pickup is second nature to me.

That said, I do agree with you on the Liberator being kinda useless at longer ranges - I usually don't bother with engaging the enemies across the courtyard on E1M1, because both my aim sucks and it feels like missing the first shot is a waste of time (especially if I just got shot).
Eh..... It's just frustrating and overall cumbersome to run around grabbing brass (especially when it goes flying into a nook or off a bridge), and I always feel like I'm running out of ammo with the damn thing. I end up switching to the ZM66 by MAP02/03 simply because it's the only gun I can reliably keep supplied even while I only take semi-shots and pick up as much brass and partial ZM magazines as I can. All of that labor just to support a gun that can't one-shot an Imp reliably is just not worth the effort. I end up retaining the thing solely to look nice, or to use in an emergency if I run out of grenades to blow up Hell Knights and Barons with. It's a major shame, I absolutely adore the banana magazine and wood stock aesthetic of the Liberator and I would use it much much more if it was either better at using its limited ammo or didn't have its ammo problem.
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Re: Hideous Destructor [Release version 3.3.0]

Post by mumblemumble »

Not at all a fan of the automatic lowering the gun when the barrel bumps, i much rather would have guns pushing me back awkwardly. Makes fighting anything up close extremely dangerous, as they get too close, you are effectively disarmed. Id much rather at least have a toggle if you intend to keep this.

The zoom toggle seems a little odd with use, on auto scope. Any chance you could bring back the toggle instead? Scope comes up on pressing scope, but can't be fired while letting go, and sometimes I want the scope without the fine aim.

Seems arachnotrons agree in the tb being weak, i took
An entire laser volley from 50 meters to the chest without moving and didn't die, no detonation, just lots of fire, which taking armor off solved. I think minor explosive plasma bubbles would be a better choice, for both tb and spiders.

Derps don't do the old spinning in place anymore, and seem very sluggish / have poor detection range. I'm honestly not against them being a little sluggish, but spinning around was a good indicator of derp presence, and even 500 unit rooms it struggles to cover across.

Mancubi seem a little powerful. Their rockets seem to instakill even with armor, when i suspect they would burn first. And I'd think there should be a SLIM chance at survival from a shot if armor was toor off and you immediately tried to put it out. Even if survival was impossible, incendiary weapons are never instant kills, so letting the player die from fire seems reasonable.

Do bandages ever give a chance to turn into sealed up wounds? I think they should, perhaps with a chance to heal with less lethal damage than the medkit. And if this is already in place, slightly more forgiving for movement opening wounds.

I see in github you talked about nearing a release. I really hope you lowered the bobbing for combat rifles and shotguns slightly. Or if not, maybe this would bring a reason to create shorter variations of existing guns? A folding stock on the smg would be interesting to enable better movement on the go.

Btw, any possibility of detection by enemies being weaker at longer range / in the dark? Dark / long range maps seem pretty ridiculous, how you can both be a mile off in darkness, but zombies instantly detect you. I'd think you could sneak a little bit at long range, but I'm unsure how you could do this. I suppose an easy way to do at least with distance, is add tics to reaction time after say, 1000 units. Adding more with more distance. Idealy, maybe stance, light, movement, possibly equipment could play a role. But in general, a system for stealth would be interesting to see. A vision nerf on distance would be a good start.
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