Lithium [1.5.2 Update][Sep. 4]

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Re: Lithium [1.3 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Marrub » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:22 am

Image

Version 1.3 (LITHIUM - Hell Knights Insist On Dying, aka. Zabuyelite) has been released! Download
I've added several new weapons and upgrades, as well as done major balance changes and much more.

Changes:
Spoiler:
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Re: Lithium [1.3 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Spaceman333 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:45 pm

Heck yeah! This will be next on my list to play as I'm in the middle of a playthrough, but the changelog has me plenty excited.

Also thank you so much for adding a comma in the score. That will make comprehending it and the prices a whole lot easier.
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Re: Lithium [1.3 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby GAA1992 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:48 pm

Bravo. Just amazing! Keep it up man! I've spent a lotta time just watching the titlemap.

My only complaint is the ssg animation, but i can fix that myself. Otherwise, this is really cool.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Marrub » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:20 pm

Released 1.3.1 as I fixed some important issues, one of which prevented people from playing Joy of Mapping with Lithium.

Changes:
| Fixed maps with ACS scripts in them occasionally causing reality to collapse.
| Gave the charge fist a better animation and range.
| Fixed resurrected enemies not getting poisoned.
| Increased shell ammo to 60.
+ Added a setting for cursor speed.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Lime » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:14 am

Fantastic Update! but i found a few bugs.
- Chaingunner Shoot sound is default. ( i remember it's some heavy weapon shooting style) (GZDoom and ZDoom)
- When you scoped and shoot (Pistol or Shotgun), particles showed up and the scope is blinking (get it?), this bug happened in few versions of Lithium in GZDoom when i first tested the mod. (Older Versions of GZDoom, ZDoom is Stable)
- forget the 3rd one, i think i know why.

Best things:
- I'll never stop watching the start of the game
- Intermission Texts are reasonable.
- new Weapons, time to test!
- more stuff..... is gud.
- The Balancing of the Weapons is much better.
Last edited by Lime on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby GAA1992 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:25 am

Just found something. when i IDKFA and try to use the gameboy, the game crashes. I'm using gzdoom 2.3.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Marrub » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:22 pm

GAA1992 wrote:Just found something. when i IDKFA and try to use the gameboy, the game crashes. I'm using gzdoom 2.3.

It's not implemented yet, so I'm not very worried about that.

Lime wrote:- Chaingunner Shoot sound is default. ( i remember it's some heavy weapon shooting style) (GZDoom and ZDoom)
- sometimes the maps i played with this mod, why some enemies have gone invisible? (GZDOOM Older Version [2.1])

Dunno what's up with those, sorry.

Lime wrote:- When you scoped and shoot (Pistol or Shotgun), particles showed up and the scope is blinking (get it?), this bug happened in few versions of Lithium in GZDoom when i first tested the mod. (Older Versions of GZDoom, ZDoom is Stable)

If you mean the scope lighting up, that's not entirely unintentional.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby WarriorShift » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:55 pm

Do you take requests?
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Marrub » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:37 pm

For features? I don't see how a request would be any different from a suggestion, so sure, go ahead.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Spaceman333 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:01 am

Just had a blast playing through 4 extreme sized oblige maps (over 1600 monsters per map). Threw in a bit of SynthDoom, a grenade throw addon and ketchup gore.

Overall, the new update felt like a significant upgrade in quality and polish. The movement system, CBI and the theme, all the things I mentioned in my last feedback post is all still there and they're the parts I love the most about the mod. The new tweaks improved these elements for sure.

However after my playthrough, I feel a bit torn about the entire mod as a whole. I got a feeling that the mod isn't sure what it wants to be. Its a bit complicated and hard to articulate without sounding like I'm missing the point of the mod or that I'm misunderstanding its individual design decisions, but I'll try to explain why I think this way.

On one hand, theres a serious side to it that the cyberpunk corporate mercenary theme brings, with the UI, transaction tally screens, the primary line of weapons (pistol, shotgun, rifle, rocketlauncher and plasmarifle) which all feel somewhat consistent and equal in comparison to one another.

On the other hand, there is another side to the mod that is a bit more random, sometimes carefree, sometimes silly and sometimes unfocused. From moment to moment gameplay, certain weapons are simply far more superior than others, rendering some weapons pointless unless I'm intentionally handicapping myself to play with those underwhelming weapons exclusively. Then theres the factor of some weapons having infinite ammo, while others require ammo or having a limited magazine/clip that requires pauses. Then some elements try to mix magic and nonsense, such as the BFG replacement, or the silly upgrades and extra modes/settings that are mostly a joke, which I think hurt the overall experience more than they add to it.

Meanwhile, some weapons and features would be cool, but are cumbersome to wield, such as the charge fist, jetpack, knife, and modal rifle's firing modes. Its often far more fun and effective to use the regular shotgun, plasmarifle and grenadelauncher from moment to moment than to ever bother with the other features. Sniper, revolver, minirockets, laser shotgun, pistol, bfg, knife and charge fist all end up being unsatisfying and unwieldy to use in comparison. For things like knife and charge fist, I'd appreciate if those were hotkeys instead of a weapon that I switch to, meanwhile the jetpack to allow free use in bursts, instead of a single long burn followed by a long cool down.

Theres also this thing of the upgrade system feeling more like a chore than something cool, especially past the first time playing through a mapset with this mod. It also feels like there is some missteps in regards to the hotkeys and the autobuy. I think the CBI would work better if worked akin to Super Metroid's suit screen, where I can toggle on or off abilities and occasionally trigger some special systems with the SCR that I earn. Maybe also change the buying mechanic to not give you an item instantly, but having a pickup drop from the sky or teleport infront of you after 1 second, giving a sense that I'm ordering supplies from an orbiting supply satellite or something similar.

I think there a lot of fun to be had with the unrestrained movement abilities + infinte ammo + special powers, which is the reason why I like the mod and think it has potential. The things that adhere to that mindset and type of gameplay really shine and feel good, but the things that wonder away from that feel lame and unsatisfying.

I don't know what your plans for this mod are, so I've kept this feedback very general and short, without going too much into detail or to give concrete suggestions. If you'd like to continue, do ask questions on what specific information on you'd like to hear from me and tell me how you're feeling about the mod yourself and where you'd like to go with it.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Marrub » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:44 am

Spaceman333 wrote:From moment to moment gameplay, certain weapons are simply far more superior than others, rendering some weapons pointless unless I'm intentionally handicapping myself to play with those underwhelming weapons exclusively.

I dunno, I feel like I'm satisfied with the current balance, since everyone keeps giving me entirely conflicting reports on what weapon is the best, heh.
I would still like to know what changes you might have in mind, though. I can always use the feedback.

Spaceman334 wrote:Then some elements try to mix magic and nonsense, such as the BFG replacement, or the silly upgrades and extra modes/settings that are mostly a joke, which I think hurt the overall experience more than they add to it.

Maybe I'll add a setting to disable the more silly stuff when I get done externalizing the upgrades code. Currently it's not possible to add or remove upgrades at runtime, because the info is rather hard-coded.
I don't feel like there's a problem with having silly things in a serious thing, but maybe that's just me. The extras are just stuff my friends suggested that I thought was funny.
Spoiler: off-topic


Spaceman335 wrote:For things like knife and charge fist, I'd appreciate if those were hotkeys instead of a weapon that I switch to, meanwhile the jetpack to allow free use in bursts, instead of a single long burn followed by a long cool down.

Those are cool ideas, the first is totally doable, so I'm adding that right now. I wanted to add jet booster upgrades back when I started the mod, but didn't really see any worth in them. Seems I'll be adding those now, too.

Spaceman336 wrote:I think the CBI would work better if worked akin to Super Metroid's suit screen, where I can toggle on or off abilities and occasionally trigger some special systems with the SCR that I earn.

Isn't that essentially what you can do with autogroups + autobuy?

Spaceman337 wrote:Maybe also change the buying mechanic to not give you an item instantly, but having a pickup drop from the sky or teleport infront of you after 1 second, giving a sense that I'm ordering supplies from an orbiting supply satellite or something similar.

That'd be cool. I'll add a setting for that.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Deii » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:40 am

Thought I'd drop my two cents in regards to the lore you've built up and seems to be a bit of a problem to some people but kinda not really at the same time: just view it as Doom 2016's text log shenanigans, if you want to do something while you're upgrading your arsenal you can give it a read and go "oh, so that's why I can fly around like a freakin' plane". Plus the setting too is about as silly (in a good way of course) as Doom 2016's: demons show up, you're a super soldier and you also have a gun. So you shoot the demons while getting paid for that.

I'm willing to bet at least half of all the people who played Lithium don't even know about that the CBI has text logs you can read, even, which is kinda sad. You seem to be a good writer.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Spaceman333 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:27 pm

Marrub wrote:
Spaceman333 wrote:From moment to moment gameplay, certain weapons are simply far more superior than others, rendering some weapons pointless unless I'm intentionally handicapping myself to play with those underwhelming weapons exclusively.

I dunno, I feel like I'm satisfied with the current balance, since everyone keeps giving me entirely conflicting reports on what weapon is the best, heh.
I would still like to know what changes you might have in mind, though. I can always use the feedback.


Hmm, I think thats due to everyone having a different idea what the mod means to them. Many parts of the mod represent different things, whether you intended it or not.

Things like the CBI, movement, upgrades, gauss shotgun and plasma rifle sort of "communicate" implicitly that the mod is about "super powered cybercorp merc, to whom killing demons is a fun field day and he does so with badass style".
Things like revolver, sniper, modal rifle, super shotgun represent that the mod is more about "Default doom marine trying to survive hell's forces with effective, but limited/balanced equipment" experience.
Things like the Magical BFG cannon pull the mod toward the "We Hexen/Heretic now" experience.

This is what I meant when I say the mod is pulling itself into various different directions at once, trying to be everything at once, which results in a wierd mixed bag effect. Which ever direction someone wants the mod to be, the rest of the content will feel out of place.

This is how I envision Lithium:

To me, this mod is about the first option, the "super cybermerc" one. The fast movement combined with infinte ammo, powerful weapons, special abilities and multiple modes/boosters is how I see this mod. As a comparison, it see this as a different take on Project MSX, if you're familiar with that mod. Fast paced action geared towards slaughtermaps and being a fast badass, yet as durable as the regular doomguy in regards how much damage I can tank. Not overpowered by much, but definitely stronger than regular doomguy.

Weapons center around the mod's regular magnetic shotgun as the standard from which everything else draws its sense of balance. All weapons are equally useful and fun to use, come with infinite ammo, in one way or another. Some are more situational, some are general, some excel at certain situations but may be less useful in other situations. Some weapons are keyed to a hotkey as an on-demand action, rather than seperate standalone weapon due to their situational nature, kind of like the melee attack in Halo games, mighty foot in Duke Nukem 3D or a grenade hotkey from modern warfare.

Meanwhile, the CBI provides access to toggle suit systems on and off, an orbital delivery service for consumable boosters to keep me in the fight and to spend points to activate temporary enhancement modes.

To get specific on the weapons to elaborate what I mean... it does sort of mean that I'd be asking for an overhaul of the entire roster. So this is akward and not convenient of me to ask about it, given how much work I imagine it would take and how much stuff would need to be canned or replaced all together to fit my idea of what I'd want to see Lithium as. I'll list them anyway, but I do recognize that my ask is ridiculously demanding.

Charge Fist (Hotkey)
*Requires minimum 1 second of holding the hotkey to charge up a basic punch. A basic punch hits like a shotgun blast and pushes the target away by a few meters.
*If charged for more than 3 seconds, the fully powered punch will hit as hard as a direct hit from a rocketlauncher and send the victim flying several dozen meters away from you.

Cyber Knife (Hotkey) (2 modes of use, toggled in CBI)
*Shock Mode. Pressing the hotkey will let loose a quick knife swipe with a half second cooldown. Hitting an enemy will stun them for 1 second.
*Plasma Mode. Pressing the hotkey will do a quick damaging slash with no cooldown, causing damage to anything in melee range, anytime.

Magnetic Shotgun (Same as original)
*Primary fire = Regular blast. Infinite ammo. The regular, dependable blam-click gun. Can switch to gauss projectiles as usual.
*Alt fire = Zoom

Plasmatic Lance
*Primary fire = Red Plasma Beam
*Alt fire = Green Plasma Rapidfire
(New ammo system: The gun has two capacitors that recharge fully and switch every 30 seconds. Now the gun has infinite ammo, yet is still balanced and can retain its power without needing for limited ammo. Large ammo capacity.)

Rocket/Grenade Gun
*Primary fire = Rocket
*Alt fire = Bouncing Grenade
(New ammo system: The gun has two capacitors that recharge fully and switch every 30 seconds. Now the gun has infinite ammo, yet is still balanced and can retain its power without needing for limited ammo. Medium ammo capacity. Can be switched to fire micro rockets, instead of needing a seperate weapon)

Mag Auto Pistol (Same as original, except 24 ammo instead of 15)
*Primary fire = Fire bullet
*Alt fire = Zoom

Multivulcan
*Primary fire = Poison Bullet Spam
*Alt fire = Freeze/Cryo Bullet Spam
(Since Mag Shotgun can zoom, and Mag Auto Pistol has rapid fire bullet firing, modal rifle is obsolete as fuck. Replace it entirely with an elemental vulcan. Make it be primary focus for the new poison element and also add in cryo/freezing with a very wide spread, super high rate of fire, low damage per shot and a large capacity for ammo. Same ammo system as plasmatic lance or rocket/grenade gun)

Positron Mega Cannon
*Primary fire = Chargeable Focus Beam, penetrates enemies, tons of damage in a straight line.
*Alt fire = Chargeable Blaster Shot, ground shaking explosive shot. tons of damage with a large area of effect.
(New ammo system: The gun has two capacitors that recharge fully and switch every 60 seconds. Now the gun has infinite ammo, yet is still balanced and can retain its power without needing for limited ammo. Small ammo capacity.)

These are just my ideas for weapons that I gave some thought and wrote with rough values. I hope they give an idea of what I think of. Revolver, sniper and laser shotgun... everything they do is already done by other weapons to great extent. Either remove or radically retool them along the lines of the rest of the weapons. Maybe plasma clusterbomb revolver, microwave emitter instead of laser shotty and railgun sniper with a mild BFG-like tracer effect. Just some ideas.

For upgrades, instead of unlocking them, have them available for free from the start. Most activity done in CBI is done deactivating or activating certain modes to adapt to whatever playstyle or abilities I want to focus on. Defence vs agility, flight vs staying grounded, tactical vs general. Meanwhile, earned score is used for temporary boosters or consumable items, like damage overdrive, extra shields, speed boosters, damaging auras, area maps, remote bombs, mines, turrets, radsuits, timestop charges, teleporter to start of level, enhanced ammo recharge speed, extended jet fuel and power, super jump charges and anything else that might sound cool, yet somewhat balanced.


Marrub wrote:
Spoiler: off-topic



While the vision might not matter, I think the purpose of the project does matter. Anything we humans do is to meet fundamental human needs, so we seek out creative works, hoping to use them as a strategy/method/tool to meet these fundamental human needs. I've found that the best, most satisfying experiences that I keep coming back to are the ones that have a very clear, laser focused purpose for what needs they're trying to cater to. To me, Lithium as I described in the suggestion above, is about my need to feel empowered, to feel mildly challenged, to feel freedom, to have fast action that makes me feel alive and engaged, all the while enjoying the future cybercorp theme/aesthetic of the experience.

Currently, it shows promise of doing it, but the mixed-bag design and the fluxtuating balance of the content kinda goes against it, making it harder to enjoy it in the way I want. It shows promise of meeting fundamental human needs in various ways, but ends up not really delivering on any front properly, resulting in an overall "meh ok" experience. Its the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" effect. The whole project ends up being purposeless and pointless, unless it was supposed to be just a creative outlet with no intention to make anything greater out of it, but just to enjoy the process of creation.

Marrub wrote:
Spaceman334 wrote:Then some elements try to mix magic and nonsense, such as the BFG replacement, or the silly upgrades and extra modes/settings that are mostly a joke, which I think hurt the overall experience more than they add to it.

Maybe I'll add a setting to disable the more silly stuff when I get done externalizing the upgrades code. Currently it's not possible to add or remove upgrades at runtime, because the info is rather hard-coded.
I don't feel like there's a problem with having silly things in a serious thing, but maybe that's just me. The extras are just stuff my friends suggested that I thought was funny.


The secret settings and joke modes were funny and I appreciated them too. I browse 4chan too, so some of the references had me laughing. I don't mind those as extras. Assuming the mod would be about the "super cybermerc" primarily, the magical bfg is the only real culprit that would harm the experience of the "super cybermerc", since it feels out of place.

Marrub wrote:
Spaceman336 wrote:I think the CBI would work better if worked akin to Super Metroid's suit screen, where I can toggle on or off abilities and occasionally trigger some special systems with the SCR that I earn.

Isn't that essentially what you can do with autogroups + autobuy?


I haven't ever used autobuy, but doesn't autobuy just buy things? Does it also activate/deactivate the upgrades? If so, then my bad.
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby Marrub » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:13 am

Thanks again for the detailed reply.

Spaceman338 wrote:I haven't ever used autobuy, but doesn't autobuy just buy things? Does it also activate/deactivate the upgrades? If so, then my bad.

Yeah, when you have enough score, it'll automatically buy and toggle on anything it can that you've marked with the specified group.

Spoiler: story


Spaceman340 wrote:For upgrades, instead of unlocking them, have them available for free from the start. Most activity done in CBI is done deactivating or activating certain modes to adapt to whatever playstyle or abilities I want to focus on. Defence vs agility, flight vs staying grounded, tactical vs general. Meanwhile, earned score is used for temporary boosters or consumable items, like damage overdrive, extra shields, speed boosters, damaging auras, area maps, remote bombs, mines, turrets, radsuits, timestop charges, teleporter to start of level, enhanced ammo recharge speed, extended jet fuel and power, super jump charges and anything else that might sound cool, yet somewhat balanced.

I was actually thinking of doing something similar to this from the very start. The upgrades would still be bought, and be cheaper; but the CBI would be limited in how many you could have enabled at once. The CPU would be overloaded, or you'd run out of RAM, or not be able to activate something at all due to not owning the proper PCI extensions. So you'd be able to buy new processor units, PCI nano-boards, and more RAM to account for that.

I think this could help balance a lot, since currently, after just a few maps you can pretty much buy an entire set of upgrades and not have to worry ever again. I don't want to make it annoying, but it could open up more possibilities. That also includes adding more items to the shop that would need CBI extensions.

Another idea I had at the inception of the mod was being able to craft robots that would shoot enemies, pick up items, etc. They'd have a GUI similar to your CBI (using the same software, I suppose) and would interface with you, so you could control them remotely.

Spaceman341 wrote:These are just my ideas for weapons that I gave some thought and wrote with rough values. I hope they give an idea of what I think of. Revolver, sniper and laser shotgun... everything they do is already done by other weapons to great extent. Either remove or radically retool them along the lines of the rest of the weapons. Maybe plasma clusterbomb revolver, microwave emitter instead of laser shotty and railgun sniper with a mild BFG-like tracer effect. Just some ideas.

I quite like some of those ideas! One of them is quite similar to the particle beam upgrade I added to the plasma rifle yesterday. I'll think over them, and see what I can fit in.

Honestly, the shop weapons are just there if you want them. It's not like you have to buy them, but if you like them and think they're useful (as I do and some others have told me they do) they're there for you to buy. I might end up retooling some of the base weapons slightly, but I'm quite happy with the balance, like I said. Also, the modal rifle is not as useless as you think. :D

I'd also like to add that everyone who's criticized the weapon balance has really, really strong opinions on them.. it gets a bit stressful. Especially when every single report conflicts. :P

Spaceman342 wrote:Charge Fist (Hotkey)
*Requires minimum 1 second of holding the hotkey to charge up a basic punch. A basic punch hits like a shotgun blast and pushes the target away by a few meters.
*If charged for more than 3 seconds, the fully powered punch will hit as hard as a direct hit from a rocketlauncher and send the victim flying several dozen meters away from you.

I think the charge fist needs to be buffed. Would adding it as a hotkey also help? Currently, only the knife has one, because it's quite difficult to shove extra weapons into a single weapon base-class, but it would definitely still be doable.

Spaceman343 wrote:Weapons center around the mod's regular magnetic shotgun as the standard from which everything else draws its sense of balance. All weapons are equally useful and fun to use, come with infinite ammo, in one way or another. Some are more situational, some are general, some excel at certain situations but may be less useful in other situations. Some weapons are keyed to a hotkey as an on-demand action, rather than seperate standalone weapon due to their situational nature, kind of like the melee attack in Halo games, mighty foot in Duke Nukem 3D or a grenade hotkey from modern warfare.

That's the exact idea I have behind the weapon balance, and I feel it's a good one. It seems to work as-is to me.

Spaceman344 wrote:As a comparison, it see this as a different take on Project MSX, if you're familiar with that mod. Fast paced action geared towards slaughtermaps and being a fast badass, yet as durable as the regular doomguy in regards how much damage I can tank. Not overpowered by much, but definitely stronger than regular doomguy.

Definitely. I love MSX, it's a great mod.

Spoiler: story
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Re: Lithium [1.3.1 Update/Mar. 16]

Postby GAA1992 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:37 am

story is somewhat inspired by Shadowrun et al; a cyber-punk future...


I'd definitely like to read it. Ya know, I've played that game on SNES and I love the mixture demons+cyberpunk.

I was actually thinking of doing something similar to this from the very start... upgrades Ram and shit


that would make it even more amazing.

Personal nitpick: charge fist flicks a bit before anination starts. You can add a TNT1 A 1 Setting the initial offsets of the animation, so it doesn't flickers anymore.
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