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Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:15 pm
by _bryan


https://codeberg.org/_bryan/doom-redux-v2

[imgur]https://imgur.com/wwyWhdw[/imgur]
[imgur]https://imgur.com/rB4WNQ0[/imgur]
[imgur]https://imgur.com/OaHouJH[/imgur]

I’m making this post in an attempt to see if there’s any interest and also to ask for help. The tl;dr version is I have a mix of repurposed and original assets that I want to use for a map set. I’m looking for a partner with mapping experience to first catalogue the various assets I have available and from that work on a high level design for a map that is a kind of reinvisioning of what UAC is and exactly where it during experimentation went wrong.

The video on the latest revision on the project:



And for reference, the two earlier attempts at such a project:

Revision 1: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=69008&p=1157165#p1157165
Revision 2: https://codeberg.org/_bryan/doom-redux-v2 (video)

Note: I’ve got no idea if either of these run, and they’re both WIPs. Honestly there’s some programmer art test things that I wish I ripped out, but for sake of leaving it as is I haven’t scrapped anything.

Not all of us who develop games or software as a hobby have a good functioning ability to see where the limit is. I think all of us know what it feels like to lose yourself in a concept and to think about it only in terms of how great would it be if it was here. I fell victim to this and self-imposed work. I collapsed, burned out completely, and went to go live under a rock. The worst and most shameful part being nobody does it to you, you do it to yourself.

While I didn’t work on this entirely in a bubble, it was very much a project where the design document was in my head and the best I could ask of the artists was whatever I was thinking at that coincidental moment. It’s an exhausting way to work and without an actual plan the only way I could do it was in the moment itself. In other words, the perfect storm for shit managed project. While I can’t speak for anybody individually on their investment towards what they’ve made for me, if I was on the other end I’d be saddened to see it end like this had it been mine time.

I make this post in the hopes of reaching out to somebody that can help me as a type of sparring partner work on coming up with a rough design of what it should actually be. Input from an experienced mapper, or somebody who has done something similar, is very valued as it not only needs to look good but has to be worth playing. I want to see the assets at least see some form of a proper map release that at the very least will provide a solid balanced experience to the player.

If you have questions about the previous revisions feel free to post them here and I’ll do my best to answer them. If you’re interesting in using any textures or assets yourself, then by this point you’re allowed under the condition that you credit the project (not me) and link to the GitHub repository as the original source. You may also pull apart the map to use segments for any other purpose. The only thing to note is a lot of placeholders textures were also created using the 'King Pin' texture set available on realm 667. Most brick work, wood, and floor textures belong to this.

For those interested in talking about more details, I'm available on GZDoom Discord, HDest Discord, or here via private message. I've also created a server incase you can't reach me on discord via the other channels:

https://discord.gg/nQCbKXMn3g

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:09 am
by kalensar
I downloaded the Revision 2 file and,.... That's pretty snazzy work honestly. Given the level put into that version I would say the current revision 3 would have really good promise of being good. I'm kinda glad I didn't sleep on this one. It has a nice atmosphere to it that stems from both Resident Evil and FEAR 1 type atmosphere, but with doom monsters. Given that it already has good craftsmanship put into it, it's rather hard to point out the flaws honestly., except for rectifying all the errors present in the GZD console that is.

For anyone else, definitely worth checking out. Not one to sleep on at all.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:31 am
by _bryan
kalensar wrote:I downloaded the Revision 2 file and,.... That's pretty snazzy work honestly. Given the level put into that version I would say the current revision 3 would have really good promise of being good. I'm kinda glad I didn't sleep on this one. It has a nice atmosphere to it that stems from both Resident Evil and FEAR 1 type atmosphere, but with doom monsters. Given that it already has good craftsmanship put into it, it's rather hard to point out the flaws honestly., except for rectifying all the errors present in the GZD console that is.

For anyone else, definitely worth checking out. Not one to sleep on at all.
I appreciate the positive feedback. The inspiration from older generation shows which is a good sign. But also let's not pack on the pressure before I've begun any real work :)

As far as the technical work goes, it's large but it's not complete and doesn't feature certain zones in the capacity that I'd wanted. As well with having a map this large, the amount of trickery that is involved with managing AI lifetime, music switching, and keeping it running within some kind of decent frame-rate made it more complicated and things I had to maintain. There are also item based puzzles, some kind of crafting system somewhere, and interactions with items in the map which I didn't have time to do something to properly let the player know. On top of that it should have had a story, but there was no way to maintain or oversee it all by myself at this point. As far as I remember some of these systems are mostly functional, but I don't even remember what some of them were. I know there's some books, some kind of chemistry station, and a numpad key door.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:16 am
by RKD
Just a thought but, if your map is so big that you struggle with the things you want to do in it, does it really need to be one big map? You can divide it in multiple ones (even make them work as a hub) to have more freedom with the ammount of things you want to populate your project.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:55 am
by _bryan
RKD wrote:Just a thought but, if your map is so big that you struggle with the things you want to do in it, does it really need to be one big map? You can divide it in multiple ones (even make them work as a hub) to have more freedom with the ammount of things you want to populate your project.
In the grand scheme of things, and I guess only something I'd really understand by trying it, no. The original intent and gimmick was a large mega-map that doesn't require switching maps. The next revision is going to be designed as a hub map so that the relevant sections can be worked separately and that I won't be so constrained by geometry choices.

Regardless I think it's kind of a fun gimmick and maps like these for multiplayer sessions can do a lot for making it feel big since different players can occupy different parts at different times. I was also thinking about this and considering PVP. With a hub map you wouldn't be able to do this.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:58 pm
by kalensar
I'm no stranger to mega projects or mega-mods as I've contrived at least 2 of my own. That said, sometimes less is actually more. As a living anecdote to this, Bethesda literally adopted KISS, Keep it Simple Stupid, as their motto during the period they placed their last hopes on Morrowind of digging them out of the gutter.

Basically trimming the fat would probably be the best route for a project like this one that has more than enough material to make a very freaking awesome map as is.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:21 am
by _bryan
kalensar wrote:I'm no stranger to mega projects or mega-mods as I've contrived at least 2 of my own. That said, sometimes less is actually more. As a living anecdote to this, Bethesda literally adopted KISS, Keep it Simple Stupid, as their motto during the period they placed their last hopes on Morrowind of digging them out of the gutter.

Basically trimming the fat would probably be the best route for a project like this one that has more than enough material to make a very freaking awesome map as is.
While I definitely agree with this sentiment, I don't think it applies that much here. The most complicated systems are probably the chemistry station and the books. A lot of is just traditional mapping and scripting techniques that are all just mashed up in one map. As far as I see it, there's no crazy technical magic or mapping techniques happening. I'd also be back to my original problem of working in a bubble and sure I can go through and start shaving things out, but I have almost no information to go off other than how much people really like the look and that it's mostly positive. The less is more though definitely. I mostly worked only added things and never scrapped or revised parts.

My plan of attack for the next one in either case is to use the layout of revision 2 as the base for a hub style map and to make compromises in area between size and functionality. Certain areas like the courtyards will feel different, but like I said earlier after having it all together and trying it out I don't feel like this seamless style for this type of map really works. Having the maps technically be divided is also better for maintainability, and also that each map area can be more complex. Something that also happens in this map is that after you reach a certain point the 'state' changes which involves a pretty aggressive script to modify nearly the whole map. It'd be easier and more maintainable to have two separate maps for pre- and post- transition areas.

I'd appreciate some help. I'm not expecting anybody to have to get their hands dirty and dive through my code/images, but if you've played it and have some familiarity with it I can use a lot of help and feedback on making a plan to approach that. I can also just screen share and explain it via discord or something. In that way, it's an iterative process to shaving out what's not needed and also being able to zoom in better on possible alternatives and that I'm receiving some kind of actual input to turn into a complete and properly released solid map.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:09 am
by _bryan
I'll say again thanks to the few guys that displayed interest in seeing the final product. Unfortunately for the few waiting, I haven't been able to find the help I'm looking for so that final product isn't coming. I've included screenshots in the top post for those interested, but be aware any bugs/issues you run into will not be fixed.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:26 am
by Dynamo
Pity, because the screenshots you have look really promising and interesting.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:23 pm
by _bryan
Dynamo wrote:Pity, because the screenshots you have look really promising and interesting.
This project for me is just now mired with so many negative emotions that I more or less brought upon myself because the idea is beyond what I'm capable of executing.

I know every solo dev here will recognize the struggle, but posting on here and not getting replies for days on end, sharing on discord and watching your videos/screenshots get washed away by a flurry of other random stuff getting massive amounts of attention, asking for help and getting more or less ignored while all the regulars of all those places are in full on conversation, even hearing people talk about you in the 3rd person while you're there 'cool but I won't play it'. Inboxes empty for days, sending questions to people who don't reply for days but when they do they ignore whatever I asked. All these things over a period of months mapping alone made me feel pathetic and like I was trying to do something nobody was going to really give any shit about when it was done, just something people would say 'oh pretty'.

I can't really detach those feeling from this project anymore so I just need to take the input I can get from it as it exists and use it for future projects.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:50 am
by Rachael
Well - I like it - I like the previous version of this project and have yet to play this one - I wish things didn't end up the way they did but it's not much I can do about it, especially not now.

Part of the reason why I created Spotlight is because it's way too easy to be invisible on the internet in populated places when you really shouldn't be - and this community isn't even really that big.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:58 am
by Kappes Buur
That you have given up on this project is a pity indeed. It showed great promise to becoming one of the great maps of 2022.

I get what you are going through. I don't know how many times your map was downloaded, or how much your map is talked about, but that is not what is really important. What is important, though, is why you are making a map. Is it for the accolades from others or is it for a private sense of accomplishment?

For example, I myself map only for the simple pleasure of mapping. My maps are certainly not up to your standard and I will never publish them. But you have created a map which could be, as I mentioned, one of the great maps of 2022.

Some critisism would be that
  • I find your map a bit cramped in spots, I scaled it up by ca 21%
  • I rotated it by 90°, to fit easier in the editor
  • some of the garden paths and passages feel a bit random with odd angles where a smooth curve would feel more 'natural'
  • some doors open too quickly
  • some windows break without sound
  • I do agree that breaking the map up into smaller maps would help immensely. It's just finding the right locations where the transitions should happen.
But all in all, if you really want to put this map to rest, I look forward to your future map.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:35 am
by _bryan
Rachael wrote:Well - I like it - I like the previous version of this project and have yet to play this one - I wish things didn't end up the way they did but it's not much I can do about it, especially not now.

Part of the reason why I created Spotlight is because it's way too easy to be invisible on the internet in populated places when you really shouldn't be - and this community isn't even really that big.
I know. I didn't have any illusions about striking it big, but I guess where I was hoping I'd be at a point that I at least had one or two people who would have had more involved in the design and development process. I've been using gzdoom for a while, but only fairly recently that I showed up here and it took me completely off-guard and by surprise how many other developers are all too familiar with this same feeling.

I probably should have inquired about the spotlight, but by the time I had something playable I think the nervousness and etc had already set in and I just wasn't really thinking clearly.
Kappes Buur wrote:That you have given up on this project is a pity indeed. It showed great promise to becoming one of the great maps of 2022.

I get what you are going through. I don't know how many times your map was downloaded, or how much your map is talked about, but that is not what is really important. What is important, though, is why you are making a map. Is it for the accolades from others or is it for a private sense of accomplishment?

For example, I myself map only for the simple pleasure of mapping. My maps are certainly not up to your standard and I will never publish them. But you have created a map which could be, as I mentioned, one of the great maps of 2022.

Some critisism would be that
  • I find your map a bit cramped in spots, I scaled it up by ca 21%
  • I rotated it by 90°, to fit easier in the editor
  • some of the garden paths and passages feel a bit random with odd angles where a smooth curve would feel more 'natural'
  • some doors open too quickly
  • some windows break without sound
  • I do agree that breaking the map up into smaller maps would help immensely. It's just finding the right locations where the transitions should happen.
But all in all, if you really want to put this map to rest, I look forward to your future map.
I don't have any statistics either. For the longest time it wasn't only available to a few testers, of which only one actually tested it in a proper capacity. I made a post before, but back then I deleted it because I was scared for the reception. I also moved the repository from github to codeberg so any statitics would have been wiped. I think things I can eventually address are the lack of directions with some signs and directional trims, address those inconsistencies so that at the very least it's a solid Doom map.

I like the technical process of designing environments and would have liked to shared those moments with somebody. I wasn't looking to make something ground breaking, but something that was just a solid execution that includes certain atmospheric and lore elements not seen commonly in Doom maps.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:24 am
by Dynamo
Ultimately I think your biggest mistake was making something you hoped people would like, rather than making something *you* personally would like. Modding to appease to other people's perceived wants will always result in disappointment, modding should be something you enjoy doing purely on your own first and foremost. With that said, I think people would absolutely like this, but it is hard to get stuff noticed sometimes, through no fault of your own really.

Re: Doom Redux - Attempt #3

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:46 am
by -Stormwalker-
I'm loving those textures and flats! If you don't mind my asking, where did you get those assets? The screenshots have a very cool vibe to them. Hopefully in time this project will see a proper release!