[GZDoom] Dooming The Bar: City 17 V1.1

[hitmanx]

Wow, looks very close to the source engine, nice work!

[Chief Smokey]

[Chief Smokey]

The 2001 Manhack Arcade map has been revamped and moved to a bonus map position. That's nearly all of the main mapping work done now. Next up is implementing 3D skyboxes and a weather system.

[Berserker]

Woaw I must say this is really creepy, and I like it ! The old school feeling and the ambient sounds are doing a great job. Can't wait to see more from you.

[Chief Smokey]

Things are wrapping up now that the last pieces of the puzzle are falling into place. 3D skyboxes with parallax scrolling (meaning they move with the level like Source skyboxes) and rain effects have been added. The rain effects are part of a larger weather mod created by Boondorl that'll be releasing on its own in the near future complete with documentation, allowing easy use by the community for their own projects.






Currently DTB is undergoing a playtesting run, after which it'll be released to the public following any bug fixing that needs to be done. After that I'll return to the project at a future date and release an enhancement update which will add NPCs and scripted sequences (probably after GZDoom 4.8 releases so Nash's lightmap system can be integrated).

[Chief Smokey]

After around two and a half months of work the City 17 overhaul update is ready for the public to play. No NPCs and scripted sequences yet, but they'll be added along with any bug fixes in an update that may be within the year.



DOWNLOAD:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vMjvycc3uqlgewU0HkaXg_ZdIQKeY0QF/view
https://www.mediafire.com/file/ufanosc0do21y6j/DTB_C17.zip/file

[Enjay]

Honestly, I don't have much more to say that this is some really stunning mapping. Very, very impressive. Playing with the HUD hidden, it really wouldn't be obvious at all that this is done in the Doom engine, even with all the GZDoom enhancements.

I am intrigued as to why you went for sprites, rather than models, for some of the ceiling-hanging lamps though. IMO, they would have been much better as models and kind of "give the game away".

[Enjay]

Quick update/request - I really like your ladder system. It feels very natural. I like how the player kind of "locks on" to the ladder than the forward/backward keys move you up/down in a very satisfying way. I don't suppose that you would consider releasing that as an editing resource for people would you?

I've figured out how to place it and use it in a map myself and, for an end user, it's nice and straight forward even if the ZScript code that you created for it (and which a modder never has to touch) is quite complex.

[Boondorl]

Quick update/request - I really like your ladder system. It feels very natural. I like how the player kind of "locks on" to the ladder than the forward/backward keys move you up/down in a very satisfying way. I don't suppose that you would consider releasing that as an editing resource for people would you?

I've figured out how to place it and use it in a map myself and, for an end user, it's nice and straight forward even if the ZScript code that you created for it (and which a modder never has to touch) is quite complex.

Hi, I made the ladder for him. I'll likely be seeing if I can find any ways to fix it up a little and will be releasing it as a scripting resource since I know ladders aren't exactly common or easy to make in GZDoom. If you do have any feedback or tips you could give to make using it in maps simpler, that'd be nice. Right now I'm thinking about switching from user variables to the args to make it more streamlined.

[Enjay]

Ah, I assumed that it was Chief Smokey. I played around quite a bit more with both Dooming the Bar and just with the ladders themselves last night. Honestly, I think that they are the best ladders that I have seen implemented in the Doom engine. I have never been a huge fan of the "push against the line and it with thrust you upward" types, or temporary flying methods, so I've tended to stick with the invisible very narrow stairs with a ladder texture or model placed behind them. Those are also not exactly realistic and can mean a player climbing the "ladder" almost instantly (but I personally prefer it to the other types that I mentioned).

What you have created is a proper ladder - you latch on to it, your movement keys move you up and down it in a steady, controllable way and you dismount the ladder either by getting to the top/bottom or by jumping off if you are somewhere between these extremes. In other words, they behave just like the ladders in many games that have a built-in ladder system.

What's more, they are simplicity itself to use from a mappers perspective. I just threw a little test map together for myself and within a few minutes had made a map with several ladders of different heights all working as I had intended them to. I'll attach the map. Like I said, it was thrown together as a quick test map so it's rough, small and has no gameplay at all (no enemies, no weapons, nothing) but the fact that I was able to throw it together in 5 minutes shows how easy the ladders are to use.

Ladder.pk3

Do I have any suggestions for improvements? A few, but I'm not sure how achievable they are.
Certainly, what you suggested (moving to the thing args rather than user variables) makes sense. There is nothing wrong with user variables, per se, (and it's very easy to set the value) but the args are right there "in your face" in most editors whereas the user fields are tucked away in a rarely used tab that you have to scroll through and then type the name of the field into. Also, editors such as UDB can be configured so that the relevant args could even be given names like "ladder height" instead of just "argument 1"

Other things - it might be a nice option to have it so that the player could press their [use] key to latch on to a ladder rather than just walking into it. That would seem to be a much more deliberate "I'm going to climb this" action on behalf of the player rather than the all too common (in many games) "oops, I accidentally bumped into the ladder and now I am half way to the next floor" or those "argh! I'm being attacked and I'm stuck to this ladder because I backed into it!" moments. Though I'm sure some people would prefer the current walk-into type. Both have their fans I guess.

Another suggestion might be to have the ladder object not take up space/be blocking in the map. What I mean by that is, even though the ladder objects are small, if your ladder is just a texture that is flat against the wall, the invisible ladder object sticks out. So, if you slide along the wall, you bump into the ladder and can't slide past it but there's not obvious visual clue that there is something there to cause that to happen (you can do this in my test map easily enough). I did try messing around with the +SOLID flags on your actors but when I removed the flag on the actors causing the symptoms the ladders didn't work (perhaps not too surprisingly). So I guess this is maybe something that can't be done.

And, a final suggestion: climb the way you are looking. At present, if you are facing a ladder, the walk forward button makes you climb up and the walk backwards button makes you descend. Nothing wrong with that, many games use that system and it works well here. If you turn around so that your back is to the ladder, then the climb directions versus keys is reversed. Again, nothing wrong with that - I like it, it works, it makes sense. However, I have always found it a little off-putting in games that use this kind of system when I am on a ladder (facing it) and I look down. Because I am looking down, it feels to me like pressing the forward button should move me in the direction that I am looking - but it doesn't. I am on the ladder, looking down but pressing forward moves me up. Several games have a systems where you look in the direction that you want to climb and pressing forward moves you in that direction and pressing backward moves you in the opposite direction. I'm going to guess that would be quite a re-write of the system though. And, again, some people might not like it (it removes the ability to climb a ladder while looking at and shooting bad guys below you).


I think, however, it is worth nothing that none of the above suggestions are deal-breakers in any way. The ladders work very, very well right now and the above are all just "nice to haves" and suggestions from ladders in games that I have found work well. Ladders (and getting out of water) seem to be something that many, many games really make a pig's ear of implementing; they are often clumsy, unintuitive, ineffective and just really, really annoying. This is not the case with the ladders that you have created.

[edit] Two more suggestions:
The ability to define a sound (foot on ladder rung) to play as you climb.

A dangling rope version (not a rope ladder, just a rope). I guess it would not be possible to swing on the rope, but with the ladders, if you press jump while on them, you jump backwards off them (which is good, I'm not suggesting that gets changed) but a rope version would let you jump off the rope in the direction that you are facing (even if that meant jumping through the rope actor). That way you could cross a wide trench or something by jumping from rope to rope. Of course, this would require how the collision for the ladder/rope actor works so it may not be possible,
[/edit]

[edit2]
Another thought - the ability to activate/deactivate the ladder so that, as far as a player is concerned, it isn't there when inactive and is when active. That would allow a mapper to, say, place the ladder, set up all the args and then deactivate it so that it "wasn't there". Then, during play, the player does something to lower/raise or otherwise make the ladder available and a script activates it.
[/edit2]

Aaaanyway, that's a lot about ladders. Although it's related, I suggest if there is further discussion to be had, the topic could get its own thread in the resources sub-forum if you plan on going any further with the idea (and I really hope that you do - even it it's only to have an official release of the ladders as they are right now).


Back to the actual maps/project as a whole, I've played the main map sequence through several times now. Given that, by many measures, there is "nothing to do" in these maps, there mere fact that I have probably gone through about eight or nine times is testament to how good I think the mapping is. I just love wandering through the wonderfully crafted atmosphere and marvelling at the impressive and interesting mapping techniques. It's very different and very refreshing. I have no idea how the maps would play if it was possible to populate them with suitable enemies. I guess there would be a lot of enemies getting stuck, not being able to negotiate the terrain or maybe getting confused by portals but, no matter, there is something about exploring this abandoned city that is compelling in itself - and it even has a story which does make game-logic sense (kind of) and it even has an ending.

One little touch that I really liked - it's a small thing but I haven't noticed it being done anywhere else before - if you are in an area where it is raining and you look up, the rain spots fall onto your vision in a nice realistic-ish and quite satisfying way; a neat and subtle trick that works really well.

[sirudoom]

half life 2 is 17 years old. nice wad.

[Enjay]

half life 2 is 17 years old.

Nope, not true. It can't be. 5 years old at most.

[Chief Smokey]

I'd like to settle some confusion about the goal of this project. Dooming The Bar is not intended to be a HL2 beta-themed mappack for Doom-style gameplay. You're not going to be fighting demons with or without Combine reskins. That's not the point.

The point is for it to be a total conversion adaptation of the player's experience in the original Half-Life 2 beta, built upon information sourced from leaked assets and short story vignettes. It has been organised in a "greatest hits" fashion that captures the quintessential image of Half-Life 2 during late 2000 through to early 2002 (the general greater "2001 era" which represents the beta as a whole to the layman). The poisoned atmosphere, the slightly surreal American architectural style, the Consul, the inner city, etc.

This will likely be made more apparent in a planned future update (aiming to release for Christmas or New Years) which will add in the last pieces of the puzzle to complete the experience. Elements like NPCs moving around on navigation nodes, vehicles driving/flying by and scripted sequences which should bring the maps to life and complete the illusion of immersion.

TLDR: It's Beta in Doom, not Doom in Beta.

[Enjay]

Ooh, that sounds interesting. I actually assumed that you were more or less finished and that a walk-around to marvel at the atmosphere was the end goal.

[Chief Smokey]

The vehicle roster is now complete. The APCs have been joined by the Razor Train, Shuttles and the beloved "Beta Bus" (the other addition is the Metrocop watchtowers). The next step is to get them moving via ACS and then the process of adding NPCs can begin.