[Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby CBM » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:06 am

Accensus wrote:
Spoiler: Aztek


Spoiler: Monster City


Remember that these maps will be pistol-started, that means either provide weaker enemies and/or weapons and ammo to deal with them.
I'm also curious: do you even test these maps yourself? Please don't rely on others to beta test your maps all the time and actually try to finish them on UV/HMP yourself, because I can tell that you didn't, or you played them on the easiest difficulty.

Community projects (and all projects in general) don't need quantity - they need quality. At least something that is enjoyable or not frustrating to play, even if amateurish in design. Good enemy and item placement doesn't mean placing 20 pain elementals and giving the player a shellbox and a super shotgun. Play a couple of objectively good maps and look at how they do enemy placement. On that note, don't use scripts to spawn in enemies. You should use the Skill # checkboxes in the Thing properties.

I'd say make one map but make it good than make five mediocre maps for the sake of occupying a bunch of slots.

One last thing to note is that forcing the player to kill all enemies is a gimmick only a handful of people would appreciate. I guess it works on the castle map because the enemies are mostly zombiemen/shotgunners and they don't take long to kill, but once you go above that it becomes frustrating.


ok, thanks for the feedback... I will look in to this

and yes, I mostly test maps in one of the easy difficulties... just not sure how to avoid forcing players to kill all enemies in the city map

the reason for spawners is that I otherwise will not be able to have 40 monsters for each difficulty, since I would need to place 5x40 monsters on the map, thus violating the 40 monsters rule
Last edited by CBM on Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby Accensus » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:07 am

just not sure how to avoid forcing players to kill all enemies in the city map

Just don't add that "feature". It should always be up to the player whether or not to do that.

the reason for spawners is that I otherwise will not be able to have 40 monsters for each difficulty, since I would need to place 5x40 monsters on the map, thus violating the 40 monsters rule

It doesn't matter because those monsters aren't in the game simulatenously. If you put 5x40 and have each set only show up on a single difficulty, you'll still end up with 40 monsters when you launch the game.
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby CBM » Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:03 pm

Accensus wrote:
just not sure how to avoid forcing players to kill all enemies in the city map

Just don't add that "feature". It should always be up to the player whether or not to do that.

the reason for spawners is that I otherwise will not be able to have 40 monsters for each difficulty, since I would need to place 5x40 monsters on the map, thus violating the 40 monsters rule

It doesn't matter because those monsters aren't in the game simulatenously. If you put 5x40 and have each set only show up on a single difficulty, you'll still end up with 40 monsters when you launch the game.


alpha 4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g19qr3g61erru ... 4.pk3?dl=0

list of changes:

different monsters are spawned now at the various difficulty levels on both maps:

Code: Select allExpand view
   if (GameSkill() == SKILL_VERY_EASY) //“I'm Too Young to Die” in Doom.
   {
      MinMonsterType = T_ZOMBIE; //4
      MaxMonsterType = T_IMP; //5
   }
   else if (GameSkill() == SKILL_EASY) //“Hey, Not Too Rough" in Doom.
   {
      MinMonsterType = T_SHOTGUY; // 1
     MaxMonsterType = T_CHAINGUY; // 2
   }
   else if (GameSkill() == SKILL_NORMAL) //“Hurt Me Plenty” in Doom.
   {
      MinMonsterType = T_STEALTHCHAINGUY; // 120
     MaxMonsterType = T_STEALTHIMP; // 122
   }
   else if (GameSkill() == SKILL_HARD) //“Ultra-Violence” in Doom.
   {
      MinMonsterType = T_CACODEMON; // 19
     MaxMonsterType = T_REVENANT; // 20
   }
   else if (GameSkill() == SKILL_VERY_HARD) // “Nightmare!” in Doom.
   {
      MinMonsterType = T_STEALTHMANCUBUS; // 123
     MaxMonsterType = T_STEALTHREVENANT; // 124
   }


more resources on both maps
chimney fixed
traps fixed
added secrets to the city map
forcing killing of monsters in city map removed

tested on hurt me plenty and ultra violence

if you still think I need to drop the scripted monster spawning, then I will do that in the next version along with anything you might find... alternatively I could spawn weaker monsters

aaand.. I will just concentrate on finishing maps 33 and 34, so my contribution to this project will just be the 3 maps: the castle, the aztek temple and the city

the other maps, I can just use in personal projects then

---

are you planning to release it even if half the map slots are empty?
perhaps it could be released as part one and part two, each with 20 maps
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby Accensus » Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:49 pm

if you still think I need to drop the scripted monster spawning, then I will do that in the next version along with anything you might find... alternatively I could spawn weaker monsters

Better use the skill properties.

are you planning to release it even if half the map slots are empty?

Yes.

perhaps it could be released as part one and part two, each with 20 maps

I don't think I'll have the time or energy for another project.
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby CBM » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:31 am

Accensus wrote:
if you still think I need to drop the scripted monster spawning, then I will do that in the next version along with anything you might find... alternatively I could spawn weaker monsters

Better use the skill properties.

are you planning to release it even if half the map slots are empty?

Yes.

perhaps it could be released as part one and part two, each with 20 maps

I don't think I'll have the time or energy for another project.

yes ok I will drop the scripted spawning

what about the rest of the maps?

and what kind of monster placement and type?

I was thinking about this for types of monsters...

skill 5
3 cyberdemons
3 spider maserminds
4 archviles
4 barons of hell
26 hellknights

skill 4
2 pain elementals
2 caco demons
20 chaingunners
16 imps

skill 3
2 cacodemons
10 chaingunners
10 imps
10 demons
8 sergeants

skill 2
10 imps
20 sergeants
10 demons

skill 1
40 former humans

??
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby howeartistic » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:02 am

@CBM Hey dude, played both maps again, wanted to share my two cents.

Aztek - Didn't work, walked up the stairs, fell in the hole... and nothin. Might
be a problem on my end, I'm still figuring out versions and compatibility, etc.
Also, the missing textures I mentioned last time are now textured, but with the
base "STARTAN" I think. Playtesting was mentioned before, but you should make
a habit of walking through your map backwards and forwards a few times to catch
those little things.

City - A lot less lag this time, my potatoe was purring nice. I walked onto the top
of the nearest building, shot a few demons til I got bored, then ran across the roof
tops, across the giant unused garden(?) and into the exit. That was my experience
with the city. My question to you is; Was that your intention when you made it? Is
that how you saw a person playing through the map?

I have a point here and I hope you'll follow. When I'm designing a map, the very
first thing I do is design a space that's fun to move around in and flows from point
A to point B to point C. At this stage, I'm laying down rooms and hallways, then
taking a test run through. I'll adjust elevation, throw in some stairs, but it's all about
movement. Once I have something (and I've got 20 half started lol), then I'll start to
work the theme of the environment in. This usually leads to adding details that can
change the player's course through the map, like traps or secrets. I can also design
encounters that will play out a specific way (and it's so exciting when a player does
something you didn't intend!). In the 40mon map I just did, check out the encounter
with the Mancubus in the second room. My plan for it was to have the player come in,
see the yummy blue potions, then the Mancubus kool-aids through the wall, the player
freaks out and backs off, and then the lost souls jump em from behind. I was pretty
proud of that one; if it works as intended, I think that's a lot of "mileage" out of just 3
monsters. The 40 monster limit was exciting for me to work on mostly because I got to
really stretch my imagination and come up with the best ways to mess with the player,
not to be mean, but to be fun and challenging.

I'd love to see you do a map that's just rooms and hallways. Nothing fancy. Put a hard
limit on yourself, like "no teleports", etc. I KNOW that you put a lot of effort into the
city map. Respect. When I tell you that I hopped the fence and broke your level, skipping
over all the work you put in, that should make you feel something. Accensus found a skip in my
level, in the area with the trapped pain elemental. I was so focused on how I moved through
the map, I never even considered that someone could double back through the same door
they came in, and never free the poor meatball. :( Fixed it up, thanked Accensus for catching
it, and now the map's way better.

You can do it, bro. I'm always down to chat if you got ideas you wanna fling around!

Potatoe out! xo
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby CBM » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 am

howeartistic wrote:@CBM Hey dude, played both maps again, wanted to share my two cents.

Aztek - Didn't work, walked up the stairs, fell in the hole... and nothin. Might
be a problem on my end, I'm still figuring out versions and compatibility, etc.
Also, the missing textures I mentioned last time are now textured, but with the
base "STARTAN" I think. Playtesting was mentioned before, but you should make
a habit of walking through your map backwards and forwards a few times to catch
those little things.

City - A lot less lag this time, my potatoe was purring nice. I walked onto the top
of the nearest building, shot a few demons til I got bored, then ran across the roof
tops, across the giant unused garden(?) and into the exit. That was my experience
with the city. My question to you is; Was that your intention when you made it? Is
that how you saw a person playing through the map?

I have a point here and I hope you'll follow. When I'm designing a map, the very
first thing I do is design a space that's fun to move around in and flows from point
A to point B to point C. At this stage, I'm laying down rooms and hallways, then
taking a test run through. I'll adjust elevation, throw in some stairs, but it's all about
movement. Once I have something (and I've got 20 half started lol), then I'll start to
work the theme of the environment in. This usually leads to adding details that can
change the player's course through the map, like traps or secrets. I can also design
encounters that will play out a specific way (and it's so exciting when a player does
something you didn't intend!). In the 40mon map I just did, check out the encounter
with the Mancubus in the second room. My plan for it was to have the player come in,
see the yummy blue potions, then the Mancubus kool-aids through the wall, the player
freaks out and backs off, and then the lost souls jump em from behind. I was pretty
proud of that one; if it works as intended, I think that's a lot of "mileage" out of just 3
monsters. The 40 monster limit was exciting for me to work on mostly because I got to
really stretch my imagination and come up with the best ways to mess with the player,
not to be mean, but to be fun and challenging.

I'd love to see you do a map that's just rooms and hallways. Nothing fancy. Put a hard
limit on yourself, like "no teleports", etc. I KNOW that you put a lot of effort into the
city map. Respect. When I tell you that I hopped the fence and broke your level, skipping
over all the work you put in, that should make you feel something. Accensus found a skip in my
level, in the area with the trapped pain elemental. I was so focused on how I moved through
the map, I never even considered that someone could double back through the same door
they came in, and never free the poor meatball. :( Fixed it up, thanked Accensus for catching
it, and now the map's way better.

You can do it, bro. I'm always down to chat if you got ideas you wanna fling around!

Potatoe out! xo


I have no idea what is going on with the aztek map on your system, but its just a bog standard sector portal between the top of the aztek pyramid and the actual level itself... It works just fine on my system and I have never encountered that missing texture you mentioned

here is a screenshot from a test of he aztek level (map 33) I did just now using the latest GZDoom (V.4.4.2) along with the freedoom 2 IWAD:
Image

the city, I had a script running that wanted the player to kill all monsters in the city with the extra challenge of having to search around the city for weapons, but accensus made it clear, in his usual quite unfriendly way, that he did not like either of those things - same deal with the aztek map

it completely changed the gameplay in both maps and not for the better, since I was forced to provide ample supply of everything in the maps, then that aspect is now gone from both maps as well

I too have a lot of maps that are stranded atm, some of them have potential (my shrunk the doomguy map could work with some of the ideers I recently decided upon for it) and others, not so much

If you read some of the previous posts, you can see that I have had several other ideers for maps that could be nice concepts but those got shot down as well

this whole battle is just... too much

I am beginning to consider just being satisfied with having provided the castle map to this community project,
...atleast that map is accepted as completed

I can always use my maps in my own megawad that I am working on (After Dawn)
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby Accensus » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:14 am

what about the rest of the maps?

What about them? And which maps exactly?

and what kind of monster placement and type?

That's up to you. It's your map.

I was thinking about this for types of monsters...

I'd replace some of the chaingunners with something else. Also wouldn't bother with Skill 5. Nobody plays on Nightmare. And even then nightmare would be enough of a challenge with the same spawned enemies as Ultra-Violence, so keep Skill 4 and 5 the same.

EDIT: As for the alpha, I actually managed to finish the aztek map this time. Bestiary needs more variety, though. Especially for the city map. Revenants and Cacodemons both die from 2 SSG shots to the face. Running around doing nothing but that is ugh. A higher difficulty does not mean "spongier enemies" - it means "tougher battles" brought upon by clever monster placement.
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby CBM » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:32 am

Accensus wrote:
what about the rest of the maps?

What about them? And which maps exactly?

and what kind of monster placement and type?

That's up to you. It's your map.

I was thinking about this for types of monsters...

I'd replace some of the chaingunners with something else. Also wouldn't bother with Skill 5. Nobody plays on Nightmare. And even then nightmare would be enough of a challenge with the same spawned enemies as Ultra-Violence, so keep Skill 4 and 5 the same.

EDIT: As for the alpha, I actually managed to finish the aztek map this time. Bestiary needs more variety, though. Especially for the city map. Revenants and Cacodemons both die from 2 SSG shots to the face. Running around doing nothing but that is ugh. A higher difficulty does not mean "spongier enemies" - it means "tougher battles" brought upon by clever monster placement.


ok thanks for the feedback
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby Voltcom9 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:36 pm

Hey OP, I had an idea of instead of playing these maps each sequentially what if they were all accessible from a central hub similar to how DUMP or the DWMP have done in the past?
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby howeartistic » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:27 pm

Voltcom9 wrote:Hey OP, I had an idea of instead of playing these maps each sequentially what if they were all accessible from a central hub similar to how DUMP or the DWMP have done in the past?


Can I help with the hub world if we do this?! Pleeeease? :D
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby howeartistic » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:36 pm

Ok, so here's my finalfinalfinaaal.wps version of my map. I would love feedback, let me
know if there's any glaring issues I missed. If it's all cool, I'll give it the proper map slot
and do the write up. Not sure if you wanna put it in Hell Tech or Tech Hell. If you recognize
the tunes, you get a lap dance from Horus. ;)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ioU1wg ... sp=sharing

I also have another map about half done. Office level using puzzles, shrinking doomguy, and
sort of a "frustrating nonsensical corporate Portal / Stanley Parable vibe". I'll post it when I get a bit
more down on it.

Stay sick, my dudes! <3
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby Accensus » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:10 am

I'll check it out soon-ish and let you know. Currently tackling several things at once, including some internal stuff for this project, but hopefully I should have some time on Saturday to properly test it out.
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby howeartistic » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:31 pm

Ok, so... needed something quick to do, and I came up with this. I'm picturing like a
downtown future city block. This is like, halfway point for me, still got lots to do.
I'd love feedback! Not sure on mutator, or which section it would fit in. Hope we can
do somethin' with it! lol

Also, CBM, if you check it out, this is what I was talking about with getting the flow
down before I worry about too much detail, etc. The monsters and items are just
placeholders.

Hope everyone is having an awesome week!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KvhKFa ... sp=sharing
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Re: [Community Sequel] 40 Monsters Challenge

Postby 9Rifleman » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:56 am

@howe:

I played it and while it's still very basic, I think it'll look good. I thought the exit button would lower a lift under me, it looks that way. I was able to get to the exit without needing to go through red or blue door, and the keys are not placed yet, so the first time I didn't see half the map. Had to play it twice and use IDKFA to see the whole thing :) The basis is solid, now just finish it :)

As for the section, you could go with FIREBLU kingdom, since you are already using it. And mutator? You use some grating and 'see-through' walls, maybe the one with shootable switches? Or the all-important barrel? My two cents :)
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