SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby Gez » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:04 am

Yeah, there are a lot of bugs as a result of code overhauls, the best you can do is share your work-in-progress with the developers and make bug reports about the issues you've seen.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby _mental_ » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:43 am

cortlong50 wrote:just found out the new version of GZDoom just broke a ton of shit all over the map

Please be more specific. For every single issue you encountered please create a bug report.

cortlong50 wrote:(because why ensure backwards compatibility right?)

We are doing our best to support old mods and maps. Sometimes, compatibility is broken by occasion and this should be fixed. Unfortunately, some things are not fixable.
This doesn't mean, however, that we don't care about compatibility. Post your concerns, they will be evaluated case-by-case.
Saying 'nothing works, so fuck you' is counterproductive and won't lead us anywhere.

cortlong50 wrote:(and then have the devs act like im stupid for bringing up legitimate issues for every release.)

What are those issues exactly? I found only one your topic in Bugs and Technical Issues subforums. If we are not aware of problems, how can we fix them?
Also, reporting issues require a bit of effort from your side. Sorry but we cannot spend hours in desperate attempts to replicate your setup in order to reproduce a bug.

Please remember that we are all people and people make mistakes. At the same time, if we cannot reproduce bugs in a reasonable amount of time, they won't be fixed.
Even if you cannot provide a small self-contained sample, you should create a bug report, and then share your work with developers only by their request.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby Rachael » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:59 am

cortlong50 wrote:probably wont be more.

just found out the new version of GZDoom just broke a ton of shit all over the map (because why ensure backwards compatibility right?) and after 4 years working on this just have it get fucked up...im over it.

im probably gonna mark this as a complete waste of time and a dead project. im not going to go back through every level just to have it get broken later, or break it for the older versions when people wanna play with actually decent framerates (and then have the devs act like im stupid for bringing up legitimate issues for every release.)

im straight up defeated at this point. im sick of playing catch up with each version of GZ. That was 4 years of fuckin pain in the ass for nothing.


Cortlong - over the time that I've known you, before you made this post, you've been one of the most well-tempered and chill people that I've ever dealt with, so I have no idea where this attitude that we don't care comes from and to see it manifest this way - into what is essentially killing a brainchild with so much potential - is quite jarring.

Bear in mind, my lack of interaction with you is not me not caring, but rather that the things you need help with are typically things that others on the development team are better versed to deal with than myself.

Like _mental_ said - help us help you. We can't read your mind. We don't get a notification every time something goes wrong. We have no idea when you yell at your monitor in dismay or disgust. And we certainly can't fix any issues if we don't know about them, or if we're not given enough tools and information to diagnose it in the first place. We're not omniscient. We're not all-knowing all-seeing. We're only human beings. And our tools and resources are honestly extremely limited, so we can't just fix something that's broken if we don't have a sample of what causes it to break.

I certainly hope this outburst is a one-off thing. If this is a more or less permanent turn-around, then I can easily say that I am very disappointed.

And you know what? Yeah, we keep saying over and over again that old versions are unsupported. They are - that's not going to change. But if you need to develop on an older version at least to get a project done - then that's better than flat out killing it just because a new release broke it.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby cortlong50 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:07 am

Jimmy wrote:What's the nature of the breakages? There could be bugs in GZDoom itself or something that you might just need to tweak. Alternatively just aim for a specific release in future?

I'd hate to see something so promising disappear.


Hey jimmy. I posted a bug report with some hopefully detailed instructions on how to find the specific trouble making reverbs and what different versions to troubleshoot with. MENTAL commented back on it, it’s an older sample but it should contain the issue. If not I’ll reupload once I wake back up.

And if you could finish the undoubtable pain in the ass that was jukebox I feel like I gotta continue hahaha. Thanks for the response.

Gez wrote:Yeah, there are a lot of bugs as a result of code overhauls, the best you can do is share your work-in-progress with the developers and make bug reports about the issues you've seen.


Hey Gez. Thanks for the response.
I think after chilling out (I am also planning a movie and was speaking with my DP about stressful things durin this flip out. And the two cause me pretty great anxiety. So after taking a step back and chilling out) I think I’ve come to realize the latest versions of GZ have probably been some of the biggest and most significant changes to GZ ever. From 2.+ to 3.0 was crazy but 3.0 to 3.7 it’s been like ZSCRIPT, PBR, etc. it’s been wild. So I can see how certain things might get fuckered. And I know the dev team is small and bitching doesn’t do much besides sound stupid. I replied it MENTAL with a sample so hopefully you can pinpoint the issue.
Just you admitting there are bugs and everyone being so willing to actually work on them makes me want to get back on the horse.

_mental_ wrote:
cortlong50 wrote:just found out the new version of GZDoom just broke a ton of shit all over the map

Please be more specific. For every single issue you encountered please create a bug report.

cortlong50 wrote:(because why ensure backwards compatibility right?)

We are doing our best to support old mods and maps. Sometimes, compatibility is broken by occasion and this should be fixed. Unfortunately, some things are not fixable.
This doesn't mean, however, that we don't care about compatibility. Post your concerns, they will be evaluated case-by-case.
Saying 'nothing works, so fuck you' is counterproductive and won't lead us anywhere.

cortlong50 wrote:(and then have the devs act like im stupid for bringing up legitimate issues for every release.)

What are those issues exactly? I found only one your topic in Bugs and Technical Issues subforums. If we are not aware of problems, how can we fix them?
Also, reporting issues require a bit of effort from your side. Sorry but we cannot spend hours in desperate attempts to replicate your setup in order to reproduce a bug.

Please remember that we are all people and people make mistakes. At the same time, if we cannot reproduce bugs in a reasonable amount of time, they won't be fixed.
Even if you cannot provide a small self-contained sample, you should create a bug report, and then share your work with developers only by their request.


Hey Mental. Thanks for the response.
I responded to my bug report with a hopefully decently easy to follow way of finding the specific ambient sound and sound environment. I know it’s a pain in the ass to boot up a map, follow some half assed instructions and then find an issue in the code. So whatever work you do on it is greatly appreciated.
If for whatever reason the sound is unrecreatable I will upload a more recent version. I play with all stock settings so I don’t think it’s my playback device or anything.

And sorry for shitting all over the teams hard work. I’m an...asshole. There’s no nice way around it.
But I’m an asshole who has poured a lot of work into this project and have been a long time lover and supporter of the team over here. And so I apologize and I’ll help pinpoint the issue as best as I can do that you guys can help build a more compatible engine for everyone.

Also thanks for shooting it back at me. Sometimes you need someone to be a dick back before you’re like “oh. I’m being a dick”. So it’s appreciated. Weirdly. Holy shit maybe arguing is my fetish.


Rachael wrote:
Cortlong - over the time that I've known you, before you made this post, you've been one of the most well-tempered and chill people that I've ever dealt with, so I have no idea where this attitude that we don't care comes from and to see it manifest this way - into what is essentially killing a brainchild with so much potential - is quite jarring.

Bear in mind, my lack of interaction with you is not me not caring, but rather that the things you need help with are typically things that others on the development team are better versed to deal with than myself.

Like _mental_ said - help us help you. We can't read your mind. We don't get a notification every time something goes wrong. We have no idea when you yell at your monitor in dismay or disgust. And we certainly can't fix any issues if we don't know about them, or if we're not given enough tools and information to diagnose it in the first place. We're not omniscient. We're not all-knowing all-seeing. We're only human beings. And our tools and resources are honestly extremely limited, so we can't just fix something that's broken if we don't have a sample of what causes it to break.

I certainly hope this outburst is a one-off thing. If this is a more or less permanent turn-around, then I can easily say that I am very disappointed.

And you know what? Yeah, we keep saying over and over again that old versions are unsupported. They are - that's not going to change. But if you need to develop on an older version at least to get a project done - then that's better than flat out killing it just because a new release broke it.



Like I said above to Gez...I think my outburst was A) I’m just kind of a dick wad. And B) I was testing the map with the new BD and PBR resources when I noticed the issue...while trying to plan a movie with my DP (which is an entire can of worms in and of itself, which also lends itself to a TON of fear of failure) and me being a perfectionist, so much thought and planning goes into fine tuning all the aspects of the map so when one thing goes wrong it breaks everything. It’s such an airtight production.

And my outburst was admittedly immature. It was just at one of those propitious moments where it’s like “dude if I can’t even make a map how the hell am I gonna make the movie?” Not to mention I’ve been out on my ass looking for jobs for two months and so that entire thing compounds it...especially when the map is kinda the escape.

So having to play catch up with each new release is just a pain in the rear...but at the same time...these are huge changes with every new release. And I think I need to take a step back and go “oh. Okay. This thing is made by a handful of people. For free. For no reason other than they’re nerds who wanna party. When huge changes happen over a 6 month window things are going to get fubar. The idea as someone who continually supports this weird ass...kinda creepy...doom obsession we all are infected with is to make sure this shit gets reported so that it gets resolved.”
I think the feeling of reporting the issue and thinking it wasn’t going to get any attention was annoying and defeating at the time.

But like you said. We’re all human. Shit happens. This engine is a community effort spearheaded by such a small group...I’m genuinely hoping we can all take all these new features and start to polish them down into a fine wine (like 2.7. That shit was butter).

My frustration also comes from my love of GZdooom as weird as it is. I want to see this engine excel. Because the features are second to none and I don’t want to see new stuff until certain issues are resolved so that everyone can slay on it.

I don’t know. It’s a culmination of external things on top of me being a bastard, on top of frustration with the recent releases. The performance has bogged, which I decided to accept, but the reverbs was just another thing that I had to deal with after having walked away from that map months ago. So it’s just frustration.

Buuuuut sitting there and yelling at my monitor doesn’t fix anything and you’re exaxtly right. So I’ve submitted a bug report, hopefully it can be addressed, and hopefullly we can move forward. Id really like to make a career out of sitting on my ass and making doom maps after winning an academy award. So help me help you help myself to this future.

And weirdly enough. Thanks for the super heartfelt response. You guys going “don’t kill it you fuckin idiot” makes me go “FINE! I’ll finish it out of sheer spite!” And honestly that’s worth more than bored mapping. Which is another reason I like this forum. Get yelled at by a few mods with some “don’t be a bitch and let’s fix it because this looks awesome” does wonders.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby Rachael » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:14 am

Well - like I said, previously - if it helps, stick to a single version, finish your project on *that version* - then, when everything is said and done, test it on the new version and we can fix the problems together. Worst case scenario - your project is version locked, but at least it's done and out at that point, which is better than perpetual limbo with catching up with every new release. (Trust me - you won't be the first person to do that if that happens - all I ask is you be willing to be flexible and try to help us with fixing the problems in newer releases if things do end up breaking) Best case scenario - the bugs get fixed, your mod remains future compatible, and we have nothing further to worry about! It's hard to tell in advance which way the wind will blow, but either situation is better than giving up on it because of a moment of frustration.

I don't know you in real life, but from what I've observed on the forums, I don't think you're an asshole. We all do our best and nobody is ever going to be perfect.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby cortlong50 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:21 am

Rachael wrote:Well - like I said, previously - if it helps, stick to a single version, finish your project on *that version* - then, when everything is said and done, test it on the new version and we can fix the problems together. Worst case scenario - your project is version locked, but at least it's done and out at that point, which is better than perpetual limbo with catching up with every new release. (Trust me - you won't be the first person to do that if that happens - all I ask is you be willing to be flexible and try to help us with fixing the problems in newer releases if things do end up breaking) Best case scenario - the bugs get fixed, your mod remains future compatible, and we have nothing further to worry about! It's hard to tell in advance which way the wind will blow, but either situation is better than giving up on it because of a moment of frustration.

I don't know you in real life, but from what I've observed on the forums, I don't think you're an asshole. We all do our best and nobody is ever going to be perfect.


GOD YOURE SO AWESOME AND NICE hahaha.

I think that’s the way it’s gonna have to go. With how many features it depends on it may ship with a version of GZ in the zip anyway just to make sure it works forever. But gahhhd I want a few little PBR goodies hidden in there. So I’d really like if it was resolved...at least this one litttle thing hahhaa. I assume it has something to do with sound propagation and hopefully it’s an easy “oh. This was set to 100 instead of 10” or whatever in the code (as you can tell, I’m an expert)

But I think you’re right...as much as I hate admitting other people are right...better to drop the pack and give people a good time than to just throw the shit down the toilet because some things aren’t shiny. I just know when someone goes “play with GZ 2. Whatever” I go “ugh. Come on”. And I wanna avoid that as much as possible. Plus I genuinely want to see GZ continue as the reigning champ without issues. They’re inevitable but sometimes it’s just nice to play an old map without problems.

Like you said though let’s see how this pans out. And thanks for busting my balls. It’s weirdly inspirational and hopefully we can move forward with a better engine and I can get this never ending project out form under me (I’m telling you. I’m devving strictly vanilla from now on hahhaa. I get so caught up in some new effects and it ends up adding three months to each map.)
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby phantombeta » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:46 am

cortlong50 wrote:I don’t know. It’s a culmination of external things on top of me being a bastard, on top of frustration with the recent releases. The performance has bogged, which I decided to accept

If you don't mind me asking, about what version did the performance issues start? Depending on what it is, it might be something that could be dealt with on your side.
The more recent GZDoom releases should actually be faster due to several things, such as the JIT compiler, the recent dynamic lights optimization, some multithreading that Graf added to the OpenGL renderer, etc.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby Rachael » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:54 am

cortlong50 wrote: I just know when someone goes “play with GZ 2. Whatever” I go “ugh. Come on”. And I wanna avoid that as much as possible. Plus I genuinely want to see GZ continue as the reigning champ without issues. They’re inevitable but sometimes it’s just nice to play an old map without problems.

Oh, I agree with you, absolutely. Which is why I say, finish the mod on a certain version - then throw the new version in after it's done and fix whatever breaks afterwards, if you can. Like I said - worst case scenario, it's unfixable (unlikely), best case scenario, the issues get fixed, you get your pretty PBR's and things, and everyone's happy. :)

AFAIK, PBR goes back about as far as 3.4, at least. Are you able to use it without problems on any version since then?
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby cortlong50 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:31 am

phantombeta wrote:
cortlong50 wrote:I don’t know. It’s a culmination of external things on top of me being a bastard, on top of frustration with the recent releases. The performance has bogged, which I decided to accept

If you don't mind me asking, about what version did the performance issues start? Depending on what it is, it might be something that could be dealt with on your side.
The more recent GZDoom releases should actually be faster due to several things, such as the JIT compiler, the recent dynamic lights optimization, some multithreading that Graf added to the OpenGL renderer, etc.


This is actually a great question and seems to be addressed as much as possible. There was a huge difference in frames from 2.+ to 3.+. And was reported. We tracked it down to it constantly rendering portals even if they weren’t actually on screen which was decimating my frames. 3.7 seems to be the best frames I’ve got since 2.+ ans that’s one reason I’d really like to get it running on this version. Because this one runs quite well...even the PBR and dynamics (which I usually avoid) don’t seem to bog it down all that much (I packed 6 lights into a large room with PBR and int saw a frame drop of 5. So that was sweet.).

But yeah for the most part that has been resolved hence the recent update and testing on 3.7.



Rachael wrote:
cortlong50 wrote: I just know when someone goes “play with GZ 2. Whatever” I go “ugh. Come on”. And I wanna avoid that as much as possible. Plus I genuinely want to see GZ continue as the reigning champ without issues. They’re inevitable but sometimes it’s just nice to play an old map without problems.

Oh, I agree with you, absolutely. Which is why I say, finish the mod on a certain version - then throw the new version in after it's done and fix whatever breaks afterwards, if you can. Like I said - worst case scenario, it's unfixable (unlikely), best case scenario, the issues get fixed, you get your pretty PBR's and things, and everyone's happy. :)

AFAIK, PBR goes back about as far as 3.4, at least. Are you able to use it without problems on any version since then?



That was my original plan (to design it on a specific version and then update) but with the recent multithreading and PBR AND all that fun stuff I decided an update was best for the project just to make sure it up to snuff with recent releases. But this reverb thing for whatever reason sent me over the edge hahaha.
3.4s performance was a liiiitle choppy. I want it to be advanced but I wanna make sure people can play it on their beater laptops. And 3.7 actually runs quite well for how far things have come. So I’d really love if this got addressed. If not, it’s gonna ave to be a 2.7-3.0 release and I’ll just have to leave it.

But when I wake up (which reminds me. I don’t know why you’re awake but go to bed) I’ll test with other versions to see when the issue started. That way I’m actually more help with the troubleshooting. 3.0 is fine. So it’s been in the last few releases.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby will183 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:19 am

Awe man, well shit, this looks so promising, maybe ask for some help around and get some other's to help fix stuff, or heck do what Jimmy suggested and only work on it for a certain build and bug fix it for other builds later once its finished for the target build. just some ideas man, don't give up now!

EDIT: also if you do actually end up completely dropping it completely atleast release the unfinished version to the masses with the version of GZDoom it last worked fine with.

EDIT: oh wait i missed a bunch of stuff, turns out i thought the second page was the last page but yeah, its good to see you're atleast giving it a shot. I wish you luck with your project!
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby TiberiumSoul » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:19 am

Never give up hope man...

I've had my moments of frustration working on Insanity's Requiem where I get so pissed that "there's something not quite right in the code of your slot 9 superweapon so go fix it then try launching me again." That I want to put my fist through my monitor but I don't. I take a deep breath, save my work, close Slade, and do something else for an hour, come back with a clear headed mind and realize, "Oh. Thats all it was? One little code character in the wrong place?"

*zaps coding bug into the aether and successfully launches mod for play testing.*
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby cortlong50 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:50 am

Soon. Soon.

https://imgur.com/a/VKnH02z

oh, and looking back at the sheer frustration that the changes in the engine caused me. i recently downloaded the 4.2 update and i have to say you guys ABSOLUTELY knocked this verison out of the park. it runs smoother, looks better, the sounds are perfect, it feels super solid...i am absolutely impressed.

Quality update to the engine and reinvigorated my love for modding. thanks for all the work you guys and gals do. this will be out before the end of the year.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby Whoah » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:21 am

Oh shit, super glad to hear that! I was worried this project was long dead. Good luck, man!
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby Marisa Kirisame » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:36 am

Heyyy, nice to see you're back in action.
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Re: SVNHRNS/SVNEYES

Postby will183 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:06 am

Good to see an update! It's looking pretty good. I do hope you do eventually get this out there.
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