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I've been sitting on this map for ages and don't seem to be making the planned next map, so rather than let it rot alone for eternity I'll let it see the light of day.
If the mystical second map ever does come I'll stick it along with this, or as it's own freestanding map, no clue yet. It's the fourth map I've made overall so I'm fairly new to this.
Regardless, way it's a basic slot one map that does its job well and is themed around its title.
gave it a go, was fairly unremarkable, but not necessarily bad. Pretty nondescript and plain even for a slot one map, but was just short enough to not wear out its welcome. I'd say about the only legit gripe I had were the torches. Felt like they were put in all the places where they didn't fit thematically, but left out of the places where they would, like the caverns and the bottom of that ravine. Don't really have much else to say.
CruX wrote:fairly unremarkable, but not necessarily bad.
To be perfectly honest, just seeing not bad makes me happy, considering some of the other maps I've made that is a large improvement. Out of curiosity, is there any specific reason it felt like that or just a general feel?
CruX wrote:Felt like they were put in all the places where they didn't fit thematically, but left out of the places where they would, like the caverns and the bottom of that ravine.
I assume that the place you mean would be the starting area, given that it has a techbase theme there, tech lamps probably would work better there. And for the caverns, torches would be useful there but I just didn't think of it at the time. Regardless it's a simple fix.
It’s a neat little level. I’d have to agree with CruX that it’s a bit too unremarkable to work as a single-level WAD, but it would make a good second or first level of a longer WAD.
Some thoughts:
- I couldn’t open the secret door next to the door with blood flowing into the grate. The other two secrets on the map were well-implemented, but I couldn’t find any clues as to how to trigger the third one.
- There was a nice variety of environments, with the brighter outdoor area contrasted against the darker caves and some regular tech base stuff. It was fun to explore the different spaces.
- Many of the rooms felt a bit “boxy” with no variation in floor- or ceiling height. This is fine for tech base rooms, but made the cave areas feel a bit drab.
- Granting the player a soulsphere without making it a secret area is a bit generous, as it is not a particularly difficult map.
- This is purely my personal opinion, but I think the monsters should have been allowed to open some of the doors once they’d been alerted. As it stands, each monster is more or less trapped in the same room and can be picked off without ever putting the player in a dangerous situation.
This is quite an enjoyable little map. It captures the underground base theme quite well and I thought that, generally, progression was pretty good and, despite it being quite a simple layout, there were a few different ways to approach things and a number of optional areas. Texture alignment is reasonably good and I didn't spot any glaring mapping errors. Everything seems to be functional.
It does, however, have a lot of newbie hallmarks: the doortracks move when the doors open, there are weird structures above some of the doors that just kind of hang there presumably to make the top of the door the right height or something and nearly every room is 128 units tall. All that being said, it is quite a fun "first map in a megawad" kind of map to play and it pretty much does what it's meant to.
NAG wrote:
- I couldn’t open the secret door next to the door with blood flowing into the grate. The other two secrets on the map were well-implemented, but I couldn’t find any clues as to how to trigger the third one.
Spoiler:
the room with the keycard has one of those secret terminal switches
Also, what you mentioned about the rooms being "boxy" is more or less what I meant when I said nondescript. Like, the texturing and the stalagmite sprites were all that the cavern areas really had to sell the environment whereas some pits or cliffs made of the sector's actual floor would've helped.
Replies in order of priority (Top - High, Bottom - Low)
- Working on making the cavern areas more interesting, think it's working.
- As for boxiness, it's not like people design real areas in circles, most everything in the map is a box because that's generally how things are made. So I'm not quite sure how to fix that.
- Letting the monsters open doors isn't something I even thought about, I'll do that.
- The secret next to the bleeding door is working off of a open-close set up, I'll change it to stay open so more people can figure it out, cause it's something that is hard to tell without having made the map.
- For ledges over the doors, yeah that's why they're there, I'll play around with those. (I like the one into the first cavern though)
- I never noticed the ceiling height, it's a minor thing though.
...And I had a hard time telling what to do to improve the map, there's plenty to do.
The ceiling height thing is and isn't minor. Certainly, it doesn't have an impact on gameplay but to an experienced Doomer (and even more so an experienced Doom mapper) a level full of 128-tall rooms screams "newbie map". Yes, I know that a lot of the textures fit well on 128 tall walls but it's such a "default editor settings" looking kind of setup. Also, it's actually too tall for normal functional rooms if you compare it to the height of the Doom player.
As for the doors, recessing them into their own lowered alcove makes them look much better than being the full height of the room. And flag the door tracks as "lower unpegged" to stop the tracks moving when the doors open.
So basically the ceilings aren't detrimental but it just creates a new feel to them, fair enough. And I never realized that door worked well with a non-128 height, and yes some of the rooms were that high to make those look nice.
Basically the reason that those were the lowest is because they're aesthetic due to you never really touching the ceiling, the others focused more on gameplay which (at least for me) is more noticeable. Aesthetics may make add a lot to a map, but the map still has to be good regardless of how nice it looks. I'll certainly fix those when the gameplay problems are fixed.
Though in reality I've already changed some of the overhangs because they're so quick and simple. Really the only time-consuming thing is the cavern, which I started first.
There has been an endless debate on various Doom forums about whether gameplay or aesthetics are more important. My take on it is that if a game is dull to play, it doesn't matter how pretty it looks but, conversely, you can detract from a fun to play game if it's ugly. So, both are important, but gameplay probably more-so.
And as I said in my first post, your map is enjoyable to play. It's a simple little map with low-level enemies but that's fine. i personally quite like maps like that. I thought the general feel and progression of the gameplay was quite good, which is why most of my comments related to the appearance of the map.
In any case, I finished making the first cavern area look more caverny, but it makes it kind of odd traversing it. So I'm wondering whether to go back to how it was, keep it how it is, or just another way entirely. The second area is NOT done, I wanted to get a response before I did the other one because it took a while to do the first one.
I think if you made the bumps on the floor less extreme and did something similar with the ceiling (remember that you can do more on the ceiling because no one has to walk on it) then it would look nice and cavey.
Ok, time to put out another update!
Progressions:
- Finished both of the cavernous areas... kinda, it's done for what I can balance with just myself looking at it; I'm having a hard time finding a balance between annoying to traverse and hardly telling they're there, opinions are very welcome here.
- Fixed Doortrak movement. (I knew this was a thing, I knew how to make it better, yet I didn't, apparently past me is lazy)
- Adjusted ceiling heights to be more varied, the 128 rooms are not completely gone cause it seems silly that a 128 height room should be abolished in all shape and forms.
- Made monsters able to open most doors. (Most because some were opening doors that just made life difficult)
- Replaced torches in the first rooms with lamps.
- Widened the hallway before the second cavern
- Replaced the pinky in the second cavern with an imp.
- Made the Soulsphere area a secret and hid it using arguable tactics.
- Lengthened the stairs in the T staircase so you can run down in without hitting your head each time.
- Made the secret next to the bleeding door stay open rather than be open-close.
Think that's everything, may have missed something.
