Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Untitled » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:06 am

As I said, Doom 1's levels were definitely better. ESPECIALLY the hell levels (with the exception of The Spirit World; that level was the most amazing thing of Doom 2; it actually felt like Hell)

But Doom 2's mechanics were much better. The SSG, now the signature weapon of Doom (except /maybe/ the BFG9000), was a weapon that would fill a power gap - can you imagine how tedious it would be to fight a squad of say, 5 barons with a shotgun? It'd take forever, as well as use over 70 shells rather than 50 or so.

IMO, the new enemies of Doom 2 were much better than Doom 1's, with the sole exceptions being the chaingunner and pain elemental. They were more creative: the mancubi fired in spreads; the arachnotron would gun you down continuously, the revenant would shoot homing missiles, and the archviles and pain elementals would invent priorities: you had to kill then first, meaning that throwing a bunch of different monster types at once now had purpose. Doom 1 had...Hitscan Zombies, Melee demons that run up at you, Lost Souls, and enemies that had nothing but a simple projectile attack that was easy to dodge - the imp, the cacodemon, and the baron, which really served no purpose but to be an ammo sink (which is why I like the Hell Knight). Throwing a mix of monsters didn't really have a purpose; nothing fired in differing patterns that required new strategies.

Let's see..."Ultra-Hard" gameplay would be near-impossible without the new monsters.

What we really need is
"TNT Evilution the way TeamTNT did"
and
"The Plutonia Experiment the way Casali Brothers did"
because these IWADS were probably the best IWADS of Doom. Even over Doom 1. Or Doom 2. Level design is just as great (if not better) as Doom 1, uses all of the beautiful new mechanics of Doom 2, and soundtrack for TNT is amazing.

EDIT: If it weren't for the fact I can't map, I would be starting "Final Doom the way TeamTNT did" right now. But alas, my mapping skills are terribad.

EDIT #2: If you bring up Ultimate Doom's "Thy Flesh Consumed", really, only E4M2 was that hard. E4M1 was more of a cheap cop-out (no health? seriously?), and E4M6 assumes that anyone still finds fighting the Cyberdemon ultra-hard, which I don't think anyone does.
Last edited by Untitled on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Captain J » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:13 am

now this, this is why i approve doom 2.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Blue Shadow » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:41 am

Doom'd Marine wrote:Winning a Cacoward =/= being above being rated 1/10 by somebody, deserving or not, to be honest.

But still, 1/10 for such a project! That's outright trolling if you ask me, and an insult to the effort those people put into said project. To give a project a score as low as that, then it must be seriously broken and unplayable, which is not the case here.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Ferguson » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:45 am

I sat down to give this a try the other night, and all of a sudden it was three in the morning. Great job, the mappers/modders on here never cease to impress me.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Marnetmar » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:00 pm

I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying D2TWID so much Ferguson! :D

Hornetzero wrote:After playing this for a while, I can say with certainty that the level design of this map pack is outright mediocre and horrendous.

Why do people feel the need to add stupid little twists in key hunting to get through the level? Even vanilla Doom 2 had less of that in all its 32 maps (The most notable one being the circle of death). At the moment I'm stuck on level 19 on this, and can't go beyond finding the yellow key because the author apparently thinks its fun to hide the other keys in areas where its either very hard and dangerous to move through (a large field consisting of a hazardous surface) or outright inconceivable to an average Doom player.


Would you be willing to elaborate a little more? We can't really help you if all that you're willing to give us is that you think certain parts of a map are too hard to move through or "outright inconceivable to the average Doom player" without actually saying why. (And to be frank, I consider myself to be very below average)

You should also consider that a gameplay mod like Brutal Doom is probably breaking the intended mechanics of the mapset.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Gez » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:36 pm

I did hate Bedlam too, but it wouldn't be true to the Doom II experience if I could like all 33 maps of it.

Though honestly, it's worth it for the Keen levels alone. The Wolfenstein levels in the original Doom II were kinda dumb and didn't play that well, but Vorticons and Well of Wishes are interesting in their own right.

Of course, Hexsoil remains the standout perfect map of the set. A perfect dosage of design, balance, and attention to detail. :p
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Marnetmar » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:11 pm

Gez wrote:Of course, Hexsoil remains the standout perfect map of the set. A perfect dosage of design, balance, and attention to detail. :p


D2TWID DOES NOT HAVE A MAP CALLED HEXSOIL.

;)
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Xaser » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:57 pm

Untitled wrote:"TNT Evilution the way TeamTNT did"

I do quite wonder if a certain team of folks will ever attempt to do this. :P
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Captain J » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:33 pm

i hope they do a Plutonia the way they did as well if that happens.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Hornetzero » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:44 pm

Ok, so admittedly, I wrote the harsh stuff earlier out of sheer frustration from level 19 and the couple of ones before it (Why do you design maps, where everything happens behind you while your attention is in front?). It was late night anyway, and I usually come to play Doom to relieve myself, not make it myself more frustrated.

So actual score now is 8/10. I won't give it perfect because I don't like some of its gimmicks, and just because those happen to supposedly carry forward from the original Doom 2, doesn't excuse that.

1/10 is best left to BS like Terrywads, Wow.wad, and nuts.wad, or "Shrek 2: the Squeakuel"
NOT something that took months to make, months of gameplay tuning, playtesting, and effort.

To come up here and blast that all away because of key quests? Are you kidding me? Did you even play Doom 2? It was FULL of this. in fact, that's what made it so rewarding when you accomplished maps like Gotcha!, The Chasm, and The Living End. God forbid we have challenge in our maps and not cater to the arena shooter/Cowadoody crowd.

I know most posters simply are ignoring you, but I'm not gonna sit here on my butt reading a forum and let someone say "it sucks" with no actual substance as to why. Most of us have been playing doom since it started, and to see someone give this stuff a 1/10 makes me really question your judgment, and pretty much every "critical" post you make from now on.

Sorry to everyone else but I rarely post on here, and I see this nonsense, it makes me want to leave for another 2 months.


Yeah, the best response for that would be;

Image

I'm free to post my opinion on this because I HAVE played this along with the original Doom 2 map pack and I know bad mechanics when I see it. That and I didn't exactly write "it sucks" or provide no substance. Also, now that you mention it, you leaving here for another 2 months would be actually a good thing.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Triple S » Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:02 pm

Untitled wrote:As I said, Doom 1's levels were definitely better. ESPECIALLY the hell levels (with the exception of The Spirit World; that level was the most amazing thing of Doom 2; it actually felt like Hell)

But Doom 2's mechanics were much better. The SSG, now the signature weapon of Doom (except /maybe/ the BFG9000), was a weapon that would fill a power gap - can you imagine how tedious it would be to fight a squad of say, 5 barons with a shotgun? It'd take forever, as well as use over 70 shells rather than 50 or so.

IMO, the new enemies of Doom 2 were much better than Doom 1's, with the sole exceptions being the chaingunner and pain elemental. They were more creative: the mancubi fired in spreads; the arachnotron would gun you down continuously, the revenant would shoot homing missiles, and the archviles and pain elementals would invent priorities: you had to kill then first, meaning that throwing a bunch of different monster types at once now had purpose. Doom 1 had...Hitscan Zombies, Melee demons that run up at you, Lost Souls, and enemies that had nothing but a simple projectile attack that was easy to dodge - the imp, the cacodemon, and the baron, which really served no purpose but to be an ammo sink (which is why I like the Hell Knight). Throwing a mix of monsters didn't really have a purpose; nothing fired in differing patterns that required new strategies.

Let's see..."Ultra-Hard" gameplay would be near-impossible without the new monsters.

What we really need is
"TNT Evilution the way TeamTNT did"
and
"The Plutonia Experiment the way Casali Brothers did"
because these IWADS were probably the best IWADS of Doom. Even over Doom 1. Or Doom 2. Level design is just as great (if not better) as Doom 1, uses all of the beautiful new mechanics of Doom 2, and soundtrack for TNT is amazing.

EDIT: If it weren't for the fact I can't map, I would be starting "Final Doom the way TeamTNT did" right now. But alas, my mapping skills are terribad.

EDIT #2: If you bring up Ultimate Doom's "Thy Flesh Consumed", really, only E4M2 was that hard. E4M1 was more of a cheap cop-out (no health? seriously?), and E4M6 assumes that anyone still finds fighting the Cyberdemon ultra-hard, which I don't think anyone does.


Oy. I agree that The Spirit World was pretty nice (really the later Doom 2 maps in general were notably better than the earlier ones), but I wouldn't say it was that amazing. And I hate when people say "Doom 2 had better mechanics" and immediately point toward the Super Shotgun. Seriously, I see/hear this a lot and it baffles me. "CAN YOU IMAGINE FIGHTING 5 BARONS WITH THE NORMAL SHOTGUN-" no, because that's retarded and it's retarded even with the Super Shotgun being as ridiculously powerful per shot as it is. There should never be a time where you fight more than one or two barons when all you have access to is a shotgun. It's not hard, it's just tedious, and too many WAD authors don't know the difference. Oh and I can't believe you said the SSG was Doom's signature weapon and the BFG9000 was only a "maybe." God, I feel like I'm the only one that doesn't like it, despite loving shotguns and even double-barrel ones.

The new enemies aren't any more difficult to deal with than the Doom 1 enemies, with the exception of the Archvile (which honestly doesn't need the near-instagib attack it has, but that's a non-issue so long as map authors don't think pitting you against a swarm of enemies and an Archvile without any form of cover is a good idea) and the Revenant, but they're nowhere near required for an ultra-hard map. They just let dipshit map makers avoid planning encounters because why bother when you can make any fight "hard" with an archvile and homing missiles in tiny spaces? That's fun, right? Why give players fitting tools to emerge victorious from a room with a careful balance of hitscan, melee, and various projectile monsters when you can just throw them in a bowl-shaped room with a Super Shotgun, a Megasphere, five Archviles, twenty Revenants high up and isolated from each other, a bunch of hat-drawn enemies vomited up around the Archviles, and of course no cover to block line of sight with the Archviles or detonate high-altitude Revenant missiles with (or only one thin pillar in the middle that you can't conceivably use for multiple Archvile attacks at once)?

Can those enemies be used well? Yes. Have they? Yes. Are they usually? Hell no. Do I miss them when I play Ultimate Doom? Only the Chaingunner (just for the free chaingun - otherwise they're just a more annoying but less threatening Shotgunner), Hell Knight (a high-threat enemy that isn't a glass cannon or only killable in decent time with high-tier weaponry, perfect for an early game surprise), and the occasional well-placed Archvile or two.

Ugh. Sometimes I forget just how much shit I have to rant about, lol.

I do agree that TNT and Plutonia had good map designs... I like TNT more, but that didn't get a sequel like Plutonia.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby wildweasel » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:51 pm

Hornetzero wrote:Image

I'm free to post my opinion on this because I HAVE played this along with the original Doom 2 map pack and I know bad mechanics when I see it. That and I didn't exactly write "it sucks" or provide no substance. Also, now that you mention it, you leaving here for another 2 months would be actually a good thing.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. What you are NOT entitled to do, however, is be a jerk about it. Maybe in the future you should tone things down a bit.
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Untitled » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:51 pm

Triple S wrote:Oy. I agree that The Spirit World was pretty nice

heh.
Triple S wrote:Oh and I can't believe you said the SSG was Doom's signature weapon and the BFG9000 was only a "maybe."

That's only because the BFG9000 is rare. If that was the common weapon, I can bet you it would be the signature weapon.
Triple S wrote:God, I feel like I'm the only one that doesn't like it, despite loving shotguns and even double-barrel ones.

The thing is, it's the best weapon by far to design a map around; it's powerful enough that it's always satisfying to use (except against say, cyberdemons, but that's just unreasonable), meaning that it almost never feels a like a chore to mop up monsters with it. Its damage means that shells never go obsolete. The SSG is almost never tedious to use, since you can now one-shot the pinkies and the god damn lost souls (which makes up for the damn pain elemental). Throwing hell knights and whatnot (or really, just about anything stronger than the zombie) without it would be the worst thing. really, all id needed was a minigun, and Doom would've been amazing, since now bullets go completely useless late-game.

For map design, it's better to design around the SSG because
-Shotgun is weak and limits usuable beastiary without getting excessively unfair.
-Chaingun is viable but again it gets tedious to stunlock things one by one and throwing several monsters at once is plain out.
-Rocket Launcher uses rockets, and it is the prominent weapon in many slaughtermaps.
-Plasma Rifle uses cells, and again, really it's only used for the single target here and there, plus it kills ears, which limits usability.
-The BFG9000 is the freakin BFG9000!
Triple S wrote:The new enemies aren't any more difficult to deal with than the Doom 1 enemies, with the exception of the Archvile (which honestly doesn't need the near-instagib attack it has, but that's a non-issue so long as map authors don't think pitting you against a swarm of enemies and an Archvile without any form of cover is a good idea)

Please (re)play the Plutonia Experiment. Then try Plutonia 2. Then play the Plutonia Revisited Community Project. Have fun getting minced by chaingunners. Have fun having Archvile Resurrection abused. Have fun with revenants, which appear in all but two maps of plutonia.

Mancubi aren't threatening by their own, but in groups, the fireball spread requires skill to dodge, since it's not straight aimed at you. That's the point of both the archvile and pain elemental, annoying as they are - they are monsters which can't be circle-strafed.

Arachnotrons are the opposite - they're not that bad usually, but they force you to dodge, since they never stop shooting. Again, in groups, they are kind of scary, since one will almost always have a constant bead on you.
Triple S wrote:and the Revenant, but they're nowhere near required for an ultra-hard map.

I don't mean to insult the doom beastiary but barons, one of the biggest baddies of doom 1, are easy unless their ammo sink property is abused, which as you said, is just plain tedious. Cacodemons are basically the same mechanics.
Revenants are amazing because they actually take skill to dodge in open areas; large-open-area arena fights must have revenants because of this reason, otherwise it's just circlestrafe from outside the horde (group the horde first, ofc), so throwing them around in large groups actually starts having purpose.
and that's the thing - Doom 2's mechanics allowed maps to throw around large groups of monsters with purpose now, rather than a circle strafe for an hour, though some maps do still devolve to that eventually. If you played a UDoom map, looked at the automap and saw 1000 monsters, you get ready for a tedious, tedious task. If you play a Doom2 map, look a the automap and see 1000 monsters, you get ready for a run'n'gun to the extreme with projectiles flying everywhere.

Triple S wrote:They just let dipshit map makers avoid planning encounters because why bother when you can make any fight "hard" with an archvile and homing missiles in tiny spaces? That's fun, right? Why give players fitting tools to emerge victorious from a room with a careful balance of hitscan, melee, and various projectile monsters when you can just throw them in a bowl-shaped room with a Super Shotgun, a Megasphere, five Archviles, twenty Revenants high up and isolated from each other, a bunch of hat-drawn enemies vomited up around the Archviles, and of course no cover to block line of sight with the Archviles or detonate high-altitude Revenant missiles with (or only one thin pillar in the middle that you can't conceivably use for multiple Archvile attacks at once)?

Try out the winner of the Cacowards. Ultra-Hard map design, done well, is Deus Vult II, Speed of Doom (though that gets Archvile heavy), and other excellent maps. The way you describe it sounds like freakin' Chillax.
Triple S wrote:Only the Chaingunner (just for the free chaingun - otherwise they're just a more annoying but less threatening Shotgunner)

Please play Plutonia again. Chaingunners are ten times worse than shotgunners, due to map makers starting to get clever - sniper chaingunners are everywhere in Plutonia, and many modern wads use their sniper potential very well.
Triple S wrote:Ugh. Sometimes I forget just how much shit I have to rant about, lol.

Heh, I have those days too.
Triple S wrote:I do agree that TNT and Plutonia had good map designs... I like TNT more, but that didn't get a sequel like Plutonia.

It's getting a sequel. It's just not done yet.

EDIT: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/4 ... maps-asap/ Found The TNT2 Thread
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Triple S » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:01 am

I've played through Plutonia 1 far more than Doom 2 since for a time, all I had was Plutonia and Ultimate Doom (oh I had Doom 2... on a floppy) to play Skulltag, ZDaemon, and (G)ZDoom with. Sniper Chaingunners are annoying as hell but nothing beats the surprising threat of a lowly Shotgunner around the corner and blasting more health off of you than any other enemy can in one shot (barring Archviles and the end result of kissing a Mancubus). Plutonia 2, it's been a while, but I mostly just remember brown, tan, and a lot of Archviles. Then again that's how I remember Plutonia, even though the second or third level alone has as much blue water and grey brick as a standard Heretic level. Anyway, Revenant missiles are more or less "go in a circle until you find something to put between yourself and the missile, preferably another enemy because it's funny and useful" and Mancubi tend to have the same presence and priority in my mind as a Hell Knight and Cacodemon.



And yeah I play a lot more bad WADs than good ones lately, though I'm not only thinking of Chillax. I can't remember half the level sets I've played through that aren't the old and popular ones... I do know that I've yet to play through either Deus Vult, but I don't remember Speed of Doom standing out to me. What Cacoward winner were you speaking of, specifically?

EDIT: Sweet, TNT2. I'll have to watch that. No I didn't specifically wait to edit this in because you edited the link in, despite me not seeing the post until after your edit. What are you, crazy? <_<
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Re: Doom 2 The Way id Did: Released!

Postby Untitled » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:30 am

And yeah I play a lot more bad WADs than good ones lately, though I'm not only thinking of Chillax. I can't remember half the level sets I've played through that aren't the old and popular ones... I do know that I've yet to play through either Deus Vult, but I don't remember Speed of Doom standing out to me. What Cacoward winner were you speaking of, specifically?

EDIT: Sweet, TNT2. I'll have to watch that. No I didn't specifically wait to edit this in because you edited the link in, despite me not seeing the post until after your edit. What are you, crazy? <_<[/quote]

Let's visit some names:
-Scythe 2 is actually really fun, until Map 23. From that point onward...Prepare to die. A lot.
-Kama Sutra is a really nice slaughter wad, but again, it has a lot of revenant-archvile spams. Very Hard. Especially Map 28.
-Congestion 1024 isn't an ultra-hard, but it's a nice project on it's own. Oh heck, the entire 1024 series: Congestion 1024, Claustrophobia 1024. and Claustrophobia 1024 2.
-Hellcore V2.0 is a nice 11 map wad.
-If you're willing to comb through it for the best levels, the Community Chest series is definitely worth checking out.
-Deus Vult II, for the 15th anniversary of Doom, STILL stands as one of the best wads ever created.
-Whispers of Satan is amazing.
-UAC Ultra I found pretty easy, but it's definitely worth checking out.
-From the same year as UAC Ultra: Speed of Doom. It suffers from chronic archviles later on, but it's still fun.
-Both Plutonia 2 and the Plutonia Revisited Community Project are plutonia-styled death-traps, but hey, they're well-made plutonia-styled death traps.
-Jenesis is a pretty good wad; I haven't found any faults in it.
-If you want a Doom 1-styled wad, Doom the way id did is totally worth checking out. Doom 2 the way id did will make you cringe in the exact fashions Doom 2 did (though the secret maps of Doom 2 the way id did are /amazing/)
-Back to Saturn X is pretty solid as a mapset.
-Both by ribbiks, Stardate 20X6 and Swim with the Whales will kill you several, several times, but are nice maps in and of themselves while you're at it.

About your edit about the TNT2 Thread: Heh. I'm also really excited (because why does no one remember TNT), but hey, I can tell you one thing right now: It's gonna win Mordeth when it finally comes out.

EDIT: Right, part of the reason I play a lot of good wads is that I get most of my wads via playing online Zandronum, where only the mapsets worth-playing generally get popular. That helps.
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