[Release] The Refinery

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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby esselfortium » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:19 am

The Ultimate DooMer wrote:Precisely...perhaps I over-generalised too much but it's certainly the impression I get every time a wad like this is released and there's always a big bunch of complaints about gameplay, new mechanics, custom monster usage etc. whereas conventional stuff rarely gets criticised for being "too unfair" or "poorly designed" or "not properly tested" etc. (and yes, it tends to be those "other places" you speak of that are the main culprits rather than here)

What on earth are you talking about? Sure it does. There were lots of complaints about some levels being unfair or frustrating when Community Chest 4 was in public beta, to pull a recent example off the top of my head. The Green Herring bent over backwards to correct every problem he could, and the wad is far better for it. On the contrary, every time a major (G)ZDoom release has unpopular gameplay, you always seem to show up and defend it with insulting generalizations about the players who didn't like what you liked...
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby wildweasel » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:43 am

Hey guys, if you feel like carrying on about this, I think it'd be better to start a new thread about it and leave anything directed at The Refinery itself to this one.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Project Dark Fox » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:45 am

The Ultimate DooMer wrote:
Enjay wrote:I think the main issue here (as some have identified) is that the map requires a different type of strategy to most Doom maps.


And once again everyone jumps on the map and crucifies it. Kinda reinforces my view that most Doomers don't want to deviate from the classic strategies and playstyles etc. hence getting tripped up and complaining every time a map comes along that requires some thinking. (whether it be puzzles, mechanics, new weapons/monsters or just unusual usage of the stock ones)

That wasn't my point. My point was that I just flat out suck and the lack of a skill level choice made it extremely hard for me -- especially since "slow and cautiously" is actually my primary strategy in maps I'm not familiar with.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Rangaisia » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:52 pm

Played through this yesterday, and I liked the first loop more than I liked the second. The first loop got the intended gameplay mostly right with its monster placement and tight ammunition balance. It felt nice to play a map were being cautious and smart is actually necessary, and the map is very good at keeping the player on the edge without feeling unfair. However the second loop kinda just throws ammo and enemies at player, and becomes a tedious, quixotic slog. It's not as bad as most Plutonia wannabes out there, but it felt a bit unnecessary and redundant to have beat the same map twice.

As far the as the monsters go, I didn't mind most of the zombie additions, and I'm especially weirded out about the reaction towards the rocket launcher zombie. Haven't those guys been around since Obituary? One enemy that did irk me was the Vore. That bastard is everything that is bad about Revenants and Archviles combined. Sure, the shotgun can sometimes stop his attack, but it isn't very reliable.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Xaser » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:34 am

Flarp. Didn't realize I didn't post about this. O:

I didn't have too much of an evil time with the new monsters, surprisingly, but I ran it with Necrodoom for mega-lameness (warning: if you try that, you'll have to manually summon weapon pickups at certain spots because of pickup conflicts). So I hardly have any sort of ability to judge anything in that regard. Just find it interesting since I generally hate the "glass cannon zombie" archetype and somehow managed to not get annoyed by them. *shrugs* :P

Also, I did switch the music in-game for whatever reason. Vortex's "Forced Assimilation" from this thread actually fit wonderfully, somehow.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby The Ultimate DooMer » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:12 am

I enjoyed part 2 more...less strategic perhaps with the basic weapons being found earlier, but better in some ways (certainly from a -fast point of view, facing the new zombies with a pistol isn't healthy ><). Liked the changes in progression, some tougher mobs were neat too and despite the extra ammo etc. it didn't change the pace and playstyle much.

(btw another way to kill vores is to stand halfway round the corner...the shot won't follow you as it can still see you, but it'll explode on the corner cos it's too big)

esselfortium wrote:On the contrary, every time a major (G)ZDoom release has unpopular gameplay, you always seem to show up and defend it with insulting generalizations about the players who didn't like what you liked...


And you always seem to show up and try to discredit me and anyone else who stands up to insulting generalisations about the port and the project (if any were used, which they weren't here)...it's not a one-way process. And I didn't even mention source ports here (now who's generalising?), this is about unconventional gameplay (which doesn't have to use ports, even if it does on most occasions).

(no need for a new thread really, I've said all I need to)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Tormentor667 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:16 am

Thanks for the feedback TUD, glad that you liked it :)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby esselfortium » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:39 am

The Ultimate DooMer wrote:
esselfortium wrote:On the contrary, every time a major (G)ZDoom release has unpopular gameplay, you always seem to show up and defend it with insulting generalizations about the players who didn't like what you liked...


And you always seem to show up and try to discredit me and anyone else who stands up to insulting generalisations about the port and the project (if any were used, which they weren't here)...it's not a one-way process. And I didn't even mention source ports here (now who's generalising?), this is about unconventional gameplay (which doesn't have to use ports, even if it does on most occasions).

Please helpfully point me to where criticism of the map's gameplay involves "insulting generalizations" being made about the map that somehow qualify as a "crucifixion". I haven't even seen generalizations, let alone insults.

I didn't say that you mentioned anything about source ports, merely that you're always here talking down to people who don't like the latest big-deal port wad. You seem to be in agreement with that much of the story, based on your response.

(no need for a new thread really, I've said all I need to)

(yes, you did try to get the last word in after being told not to post about it anymore. so can anyone else.)

As far as the gameplay goes, count me in with those who didn't care for it. The map's layout was mostly quite corridorish, and there were a lot of unnaturally cramped or constrained areas. Given the harsh limits put on the player's maneuverability, the high-powered monsters and limited ammo didn't take long to become pretty frustrating. The key-door and switch placements were often pretty unintuitive, which forced a lot of backtracking and random guessing around. I also found some of the new monsters difficult to take seriously, like the hanging corpse that shoots some sort of yellow stuff that goes "squish", or the buzzing flies.

The visuals were generally nicely done, albeit a bit monotonously dark.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby wildweasel » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:52 am

I will step in and say to please keep further discussion about the map itself, not about any previous arguments. I really don't want to have to deal with another thread like The Phobos Directive.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby mckracken » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:39 pm

I dont see no problem with difficulty - so you cant run around like you're on steroids and have to consider corners and your back...I like that. All in all a great looking map. Hint: BrutalDoom's rifle zoom works well with this map.

sadly turns into a slideshow if dynamic light size 2.0 or even 1.5 is used. (which i always use because because i like it)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby KalebNoobMaster » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:39 pm

Am I the only one that runs this at 4 FPS?
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Gez » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:47 pm

Yes, you are.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby KalebNoobMaster » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:27 pm

Gez wrote:Yes, you are.

:(
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Piter432 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:30 pm

KalebNoobMaster wrote:Am I the only one that runs this at 4 FPS?

I have the same problem with this, too.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby BlueFireZ88 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:45 pm

I was finally able to play this by turning the dynamic lighting bar to 0.0 and getting a good boost in frames, enough to where it was playable. Still there were plenty of issues with framerate regardless. Especially when it seemed like there really wasn't any obvious reasons for slowdown.

Overall the experience was frustrating. While it seems fine for a while, the one thing that ultimately killed it for me were the different zombie types (Rocket, Railgun, Auto and Quad Shotgun). The fact that they got off so many accurate and very long range shots (with the pistol and shotgun being worthless since their so far away) just makes it feel very cheap. I took a more methodical approach by mixing strategy and fast maneuvering (when it counts). While it seemed to work to some degree, there are enemies that can get long range shots off you and you won't even see it coming, and it almost makes it feel unfair.

To those who would say that I should have taken a different approach, at least take this strategy I used into mind. I know some people had trouble with dealing with the Wraiths in the first area, and I found a way with dealing with them easily. Grab the pistol first, then flip the switch, then quickly jump on top of the nearby crates and then just go to town on the Wraiths. Since there's only space for one, the Wraiths can't teleport to where your at. I'm sure some people may have used this strategy, but it's to solidify that I was at least not rushing into this blindly.
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