[Release] The Refinery

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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Blue Shadow » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:47 pm

When it came to performance, I was expecting it slow my machine to a crawl to the point of unplayability (I have a 6-year old computer with an intel chip). But, surprisingly, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting it to be. Of course, this was with dynamic lights disabled.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Enjay » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:59 pm

Well, Blue Shadow did a quote-by-quote answer to me so I may as well reply in kind. ;)

Blue Shadow wrote:As I and others have stated, we did went for the slow-pace, careful approach, yet that didn't help much in not getting our asses handed to us. You want to slow the pace of the gameplay, place your monsters cleverly. That would make the player think twice before barging in a room.

I dunno, if you haven't learned your lesson and don't think before barging into a room after getting your ass handed to you the first time, I don't think the map is at fault. I guess my slow-paced careful approach was slower and more careful than yours. ;)

Blue Shadow wrote:That doesn't change the fact that the rest of us had actual problems and difficulties playing the map, now does it?

Equally, it doesn't change the fact that someone else was able to play the map without those problems. I don't class myself as a particularly expert player but I managed without any frustrating difficulties so what I'm saying is that it's possible. If you had problems, then your strategies didn't suit the map.

Blue Shadow wrote:Yes, I agree. But, it's only the case when you've identified him and have him in your sight.
...
Whether he's easy to dispatch or not doesn't change the fact that he can splatter you all over the place with one shot.

Nah, that big slow moving rocket can be dodged reasonably easily or you can get to cover around a corner. Sure, if you don't spot him then he can make mincemeat of you but that adds to the situation in a positive way IMO. Once you know that there are enemies that can hand out that kind of damage in the map, if you don't go cautiously around corners or through doors, you deserve to get pasted. It can lead to some tense exploration and some interesting duels. Personally, I am absolutely fine with an enemy that can kill you in one shot. It's relatively realistic (as far as Doom ever is), gives you a reason to be cautious (as I said) and, personally, I think the RL guy is a "fair enough" addition. ie if he hits you the price is high but he is reasonably easy to identify, his attack can be avoided if you spot it in time and, like I said, he goes down easily.

Blue Shadow wrote:As far as I can tell, no one mentioned something that those new monsters should have a predictable behavior. The culprit is the punishing damage, etc they can inflict upon you, coupling with the scarcity of health and armor in the map.

My apologies. I was extrapolating inaccurately from the familiarity comments. Punishing damage? Yes, I'm fine with that. Scarcity of health? I'd say tight but not impossibly so. Rare enough so that I was rarely on full health and running the risk of a quick death if I was careless but common enough to keep me out of the "absolutely guaranteed that any shot from anyone will kill me" zone.


I guess, the bottom line is that the map suited my tastes and gameplay style quite nicely and didn't suit your as well. That's fine. There will be plenty of maps that work out the other way around. That's part of what makes the hobby great fun and appealing to a range of player types. :)

I do think it's a shame that difficulty settings were not implemented though. If players found they weren't enjoying how things were set up on one setting, that could have allowed players to tailor the experience to their tastes.

[edit] Oh, and since the skybox has been mentioned, I loved it. I thought that it looked absolutely superb and very atmospheric. I was lucky enough that it didn't cause me any of the slow-downs that other people have reported. [/edit]
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Blue Shadow » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:47 pm

Enjay wrote:I guess, the bottom line is that the map suited my tastes and gameplay style quite nicely and didn't suit your as well.

Yes, that's what it is I suppose.

I usually don't go on like this, but I did so, because I felt it as a loss for me that a map like this, with stunning visuals and atmosphere (I really like the dark atmosphere) didn't cater to how I play the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm open to different gameplay styles. I wasn't trying to force drastic changes to the gameplay of the map. All I was asking for is some leniency in the difficulty. I felt it to be a little too unforgiving, for me.

I guess, in the end, you can't win'em all.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby ibm5155 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:58 pm

try all this commands at console and see high frames per second (some parts here up 20fps others 2fps)
gl_dynlight_shader true
gl_warp_shader true
gl_glow_shader true
gl_usefb true
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby The Ultimate DooMer » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:15 pm

Enjay wrote:I think the main issue here (as some have identified) is that the map requires a different type of strategy to most Doom maps.


And once again everyone jumps on the map and crucifies it. Kinda reinforces my view that most Doomers don't want to deviate from the classic strategies and playstyles etc. hence getting tripped up and complaining every time a map comes along that requires some thinking. (whether it be puzzles, mechanics, new weapons/monsters or just unusual usage of the stock ones)

Personally I thought it looked and felt awesome, the tech bits are solid as always but the hell bits worked really well too (I always thought hell should look more sinister than it does in software ports). Might've been better putting the two hardest zombies a bit further back in the game (at least until you have proper weapons) but otherwise some neat additions to Doom's beastiary in this map.

I wish more people would make maps like this, it really brings the intended atmosphere of the original game to life. (and you don't need 10000 sectors either, just a few coloured lights and maybe the odd translucent line or 3D structure)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Zombieguy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:17 pm

ibm5155 wrote:try all this commands at console and see high frames per second (some parts here up 20fps others 2fps)

What? Why would we need to do this? .... What exactly are the system requirements for this mod?
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby BlueFireZ88 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 pm

Tormentor667 wrote:
BlueFireZ88 wrote:My serious grip with it is not really being able to properly play it when the framerate drops,

That's a strange thing, none of my beta testers suffered this issue (6 of them) and it runs even fine on my older laptop from 2009.


This system is a 2011 DELL and was recently maxed out on RAM, CPU, and Nvidia compatible graphics card (the only thing that could make this system any more powerful is switching out the motherboard for one with an AGP slot on it). It runs most 2000 decade games with a good amount of smoothness. So really, I don't know what to tell you, this thing is a step up from my older system as it is.

Tormentor667 wrote:
BlueFireZ88 wrote:Maybe you could release an alternate version of you mod that is more ZDoom (software) friendly in the same sense as KDiZD or Shores of ZD. I mainly use GZDoom because the original Doom engine makes me really motion sick, and using OpenGL has it's advantages (as you very well know). It would allow people without top of the line systems to enjoy your mod and still have the version you want available as well.


Before doing this I'd need to know what the real reason for the slowdown is. Deactivating dynamic lights doesn't obviously help at all.


Deactivating OpenGL Shaders might, as it helped performance with KDiZD with GZDoom. Problem is, the Shaders options in the OpenGL menu is missing, but it's still listed in gzdoom.pk3. Other than that, I can't get far enough in to determine what could be causing slowdown. It certainly makes the gameplay harder.
Last edited by BlueFireZ88 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Ravick » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:08 pm

ibm5155 wrote:try all this commands at console and see high frames per second (some parts here up 20fps others 2fps)
gl_dynlight_shader true
gl_warp_shader true
gl_glow_shader true
gl_usefb true


It does the system get faster with Open GL, doesn't it? Why isn't this options true by default? :?:
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby NiGHTMARE » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:22 am

Ravick wrote:
ibm5155 wrote:try all this commands at console and see high frames per second (some parts here up 20fps others 2fps)
gl_dynlight_shader true
gl_warp_shader true
gl_glow_shader true
gl_usefb true


It does the system get faster with Open GL, doesn't it? Why isn't this options true by default? :?:


Because some people are still using DX8 or older GPUs, which don't have the necessary shader support.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Gez » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:48 am

If your GPU is powerful enough (supports shaders model 4), the shader options are irrelevant because they'll be used all the time.

If your GPU is pitiful enough (limited to shaders model 2), the shader options are irrelevant because they'll never be used.

The shader options are up to you only if your GPU is limited to shaders model 3. Then it's unreliable. Using shaders might speed things up on some hardware, or slow things down on others.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Vader » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:50 am

The Ultimate DooMer wrote:
Enjay wrote:I think the main issue here (as some have identified) is that the map requires a different type of strategy to most Doom maps.


And once again everyone jumps on the map and crucifies it. Kinda reinforces my view that most Doomers don't want to deviate from the classic strategies and playstyles etc. hence getting tripped up and complaining every time a map comes along that requires some thinking. (whether it be puzzles, mechanics, new weapons/monsters or just unusual usage of the stock ones)


Erm, what?
Maybe I've been reading a different thread, but I see at most a hand full of people having problems with the gameplay and even those are far from crucifying anything :|
That surely doesn't equal most Doomers and definitely not EVERYONE and I find the implication that "most Doomers" are too lazy to think kind of insulting!

Personally I am among the people not really fond of the gameplay, but that doesn't automatically make me close minded towards mods that change the way Doom is played in general, does it?
Last edited by Vader on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby ibm5155 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:11 am

well here it suport shaders 4.0 and all that settings are off, and when I up in places with alot of dynamic lights I got a huge fps increase.

wow dx 8.0 O_O, it´s time for upgrade if you want do something that´s not related to doom xD (ati 5450 ou 5670 is a nice choice)...
or a full upgrade like some i3/5/7 with intel HD3000 or 4000...

And to end, comparing that settings on and off (off low fps)
Spoiler:
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby FDARI » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:34 am

someone = everyone - epsilon
variant = innovation - epsilon
criticism = crucifixion * 2

Zdoom community holds a very high standard. It's nice in here. Other places do burn with hatred.

desire to blaze through levels in maximum action style = effort-restricted thought deficit (too lazy to think)

(I actually get the impression that "everyone"... heh... tried the slow and deliberate approach as well, but that they were unsuccessful for unknown reasons. Perhaps their impatience keeps them from waiting long enough, perhaps the solution is alien to them, or perhaps their reportoire of moves and maneuvers is inappropriate to this challenge even though they make theoretically sound decisions.)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby The Ultimate DooMer » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:03 am

Precisely...perhaps I over-generalised too much but it's certainly the impression I get every time a wad like this is released and there's always a big bunch of complaints about gameplay, new mechanics, custom monster usage etc. whereas conventional stuff rarely gets criticised for being "too unfair" or "poorly designed" or "not properly tested" etc. (and yes, it tends to be those "other places" you speak of that are the main culprits rather than here)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby ibm5155 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:23 am

FDARI wrote:someone = everyone - epsilon
variant = innovation - epsilon
criticism = crucifixion * 2

Zdoom community holds a very high standard. It's nice in here. Other places do burn with hatred.

desire to blaze through levels in maximum action style = effort-restricted thought deficit (too lazy to think)

(I actually get the impression that "everyone"... heh... tried the slow and deliberate approach as well, but that they were unsuccessful for unknown reasons. Perhaps their impatience keeps them from waiting long enough, perhaps the solution is alien to them, or perhaps their reportoire of moves and maneuvers is inappropriate to this challenge even though they make theoretically sound decisions.)

Sorry I don´t understand what ou wrote there :s
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