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Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:19 pm
by Ghastly
Blue Shadow wrote:
Ghastly_dragon wrote:I really don't think much should be done about them. I never had any problems with them by playing the game carefully and slowly.

Familiarity plays a significant role, my friend. You, Ghastly, are one of two main people that maintain the monsters submitted to the beastiary and you most probably know these custom monsters more than most people (you also admited that you coded 9 of them), thus you have an advantage over the rest of us who don't know about them. So, your opinion isn't 100% valid, I'm afraid.
It's not about being more familiar with them. They can be learned. Think of all the monsters in Quake 1, 2 and 4 that you never coded, but know how to fight. :P

Like I said, some of those monsters seemed pretty random and redundant, but the majority weren't quite that bad. But Sonic Railgun Zombies do need to be higher level, just because they're so tricky to avoid, and I don't think he used the ZSpecOps Railgun variant at all, despite it being in there. The map did need more health though. However, he should be applauded for using the Core Tentacle well. :P

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:43 pm
by Shadelight
Ok. I ran through this again after reading how it's supposed to be played and I enjoyed it a lot more. I still think there should be a bit more ammo at the beginning though.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:23 am
by Tormentor667
BlueFireZ88 wrote:I'm with Blue Shadow, Torm seems pretty hellbent (pardon the pun) on keeping things the way they are. Although, I have to speak against Torm's position as I feel that he's being stubborn and ignoring legitimate criticisms to change aspects of the mod.

Considering this stubborn is a bit too hard :) You know, I don't have to earn money for a living with the mod, so the main vision behind my projects is to turn them into something I am pleased with. When doing betatests and also release candidates, I look for problems and ideas that occure, but I do not add or change everything to please everyone else. If it fits into my vision and my idea of the project, and if I think it's a good addition without destroying my own goal, I will add it. But if it doesn't - even though everyone dislikes it but me - I won't add it :)

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:49 am
by BlueFireZ88
I can respect a person's creative vision. I'm not against the pacing being slow, or lack of difficulty levels (though I find it odd, and I am a bit curious as to why they were dropped). New enemies and weapons are a welcome addition if done right (like in KDiZD). At the end of the day it's your mod. My serious grip with it is not really being able to properly play it when the framerate drops, even though my system is fairly smooth with graphically heavy games (Doom 3, Half-Life 2, and a few other modern games, although not the serious stuff like Rage or Skyrim). So what I said in my last post was out of frustration for not being able to play this as intended, and I am sorry if you took offense to it.

I do have a suggestion that may address this: Maybe you could release an alternate version of you mod that is more ZDoom (software) friendly in the same sense as KDiZD or Shores of ZD. I mainly use GZDoom because the original Doom engine makes me really motion sick, and using OpenGL has it's advantages (as you very well know). It would allow people without top of the line systems to enjoy your mod and still have the version you want available as well.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:56 am
by scalliano
@Ghastly: Fix your quotes, mate ;)

@Blue Shadow: Personally I don't think being the author of a particular monster undercuts one's opinion on whether or not it was used well in a map. That's like saying that because I put the 667 Shuffle together, it undercuts my opinion on all of these enemies since I encounter them all on a regular basis. Not so. I created the ASG zombie, but I felt that he showed up a bit too early in the first round due to the lack of shotgun ammo to take him down effectively. Incidentally, the ASG Guy's damage stats are reduced in proportion with the regular Shotgun Guy compared to the weapons they're carrying (roughly two thirds). IIRC the ZSpecOps do the full whack. Does that alone make them cheap? Not in the slightest, it just adds to the "oh shit" factor, and you can get to grips with their behaviour.

Taking the ASG Guy as an example again, no one is denying that his shots are powerful as fuck, but as with the ASG itself, once he fires off 16 of them he needs to reload. While he's reloading, he's an absolute sitting duck.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:28 am
by Ghastly
scalliano wrote:@Ghastly: Fix your quotes, mate ;)
Done, sorry! I have the horrible habit of writing tags by hand. :P

Taking the ASG Guy as an example again, no one is denying that his shots are powerful as cake, but as with the ASG itself, once he fires off 16 of them he needs to reload. While he's reloading, he's an absolute sitting duck.

Well, I'm a little more on the fence about that. When do you ever let him get 16 shots off? :P

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:28 am
by CaptainToenail
I played this through last night. I had to play with GZDoom in software mode because GL mode actually caused my laptop to freeze! :o

Some things I noticed:

-holy cow the autoshotgun zombie is overpowered!
-rocket zombies could have used less-damaging rockets, two thirds or a half of the regular rocket damage would have been reasonable.
-the core tentacles sound effects are way too loud when playing with earphones for some reason. I actually jamp out my seat when the first tentacle appeared becuase the noise in my ear was so sudden and so loud! :o
-the Blot and Pustules monsters are fairly useless, which is a bit of a facepalm moment for me because I designed them. :lol: If someone wants to modify them on the Beastiery so they are not so useless be my guest. Ideas that spring to mind are acidic blood/pus/slime from the Pustules, and give the Blot the ability to fly or glide or something. Anything to stop it catching on corners. :roll:
-Geztube, what's that all about? Something you are not telling us? :P

Apart from that is was a pretty decent map, looked nice and the gameplay was solid, if a bit formulaic and samey.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:05 am
by Project Dark Fox
I'm no Doom God. The lack of skill level choices kicked my ass throughout the very first playthrough, and especially in the beginning. While the map definitely looked pretty, I felt like I was going through a bit of an exercise in frustration.
And I even played the slow and steady routine.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:10 am
by Blue Shadow
scalliano wrote:Personally I don't think being the author of a particular monster undercuts one's opinion on whether or not it was used well in a map. That's like saying that because I put the 667 Shuffle together, it undercuts my opinion on all of these enemies since I encounter them all on a regular basis.

The point I was trying to make is: "Knowledge is power". I don't know about you, but I, for one, know my monsters very well, their weaknesses and their strengths. That means I'm prepared in advance whenever I run into them while playing and, thus I can use the right approach when dealing with them. I'm not saying I'm "immune" to them, no, that would be silly, but the knowledge that I have about them still gives me an edge to some extent, unlike someone who's never seen them or dealt with them before.

CaptainToenail wrote:-rocket zombies could have used less-damaging rockets, two thirds or a half of the regular rocket damage would have been reasonable.

That's another issue in the favor of the custom zombie enemies; the rocket launcher zombie. The flaw with this guy, other than the massive amount of damage he could potentially deal, is that he doesn't look threatening as the actual weapon he's carrying. He can blend very well with other zombies, which makes him even more dangerous than he already is, thus breaking the balance. I mean, take a look at the cyberdemon. Its looks matches the devastation of its weapon.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:22 am
by Enjay
I think the main issue here (as some have identified) is that the map requires a different type of strategy to most Doom maps. I realised that pretty quickly and had no real problems despite not being particularly familiar with any of the new enemies. What's more, I was playing right handed when I'm actually a left handed player. :P

The rocket zombie, in particular, might have a nasty attack but it's easy to avoid, he's easy to put down and his attack can help you clear the area too. As for new enemy familiarity, I would be disappointed if an enemy that I had never seen before acted in a predictable, easy to defeat from the word go manner. I mean, what would be the point in having them?

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:30 pm
by Blue Shadow
Enjay wrote:I think the main issue here (as some have identified) is that the map requires a different type of strategy to most Doom maps.

As I and others have stated, we did went for the slow-pace, careful approach, yet that didn't help much in not getting our asses handed to us. You want to slow the pace of the gameplay, place your monsters cleverly. That would make the player think twice before barging in a room.

I realised that pretty quickly and had no real problems despite not being particularly familiar with any of the new enemies.

That doesn't change the fact that the rest of us had actual problems and difficulties playing the map, now does it?

The rocket zombie, in particular, might have a nasty attack but it's easy to avoid

Yes, I agree. But, it's only the case when you've identified him and have him in your sight.

he's easy to put down

Whether he's easy to dispatch or not doesn't change the fact that he can splatter you all over the place with one shot.

As for new enemy familiarity, I would be disappointed if an enemy that I had never seen before acted in a predictable, easy to defeat from the word go manner.

As far as I can tell, no one mentioned something that those new monsters should have a predictable behavior. The culprit is the punishing damage, etc they can inflict upon you, coupling with the scarcity of health and armor in the map.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:48 pm
by Tormentor667
BlueFireZ88 wrote:My serious grip with it is not really being able to properly play it when the framerate drops,

That's a strange thing, none of my beta testers suffered this issue (6 of them) and it runs even fine on my older laptop from 2009.

BlueFireZ88 wrote:So what I said in my last post was out of frustration for not being able to play this as intended, and I am sorry if you took offense to it.

That's just fine :)

BlueFireZ88 wrote:Maybe you could release an alternate version of you mod that is more ZDoom (software) friendly in the same sense as KDiZD or Shores of ZD. I mainly use GZDoom because the original Doom engine makes me really motion sick, and using OpenGL has it's advantages (as you very well know). It would allow people without top of the line systems to enjoy your mod and still have the version you want available as well.

Before doing this I'd need to know what the real reason for the slowdown is. Deactivating dynamic lights doesn't obviously help at all.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:50 pm
by Tormentor667
Enjay wrote:I think the main issue here (as some have identified) is that the map requires a different type of strategy to most Doom maps. I realised that pretty quickly and had no real problems despite not being particularly familiar with any of the new enemies. [..] As for new enemy familiarity, I would be disappointed if an enemy that I had never seen before acted in a predictable, easy to defeat from the word go manner. I mean, what would be the point in having them?


This is the approach that I had while designing the wad as it was the approach that players should have as well.

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:39 pm
by ibm5155
It´s a huge map and I like it =D and here is some things that i find
-No difficult selection, i used +- 6 resurrects (Lazy xD for saving)
-This is lagger than akzos city O_O (For some reason I think the skybox is the hardware eater ^^) playinf at 1680x1050 I got 12-35fps at opengl
-strange combination of monsters, I didn´t like, and like at the same time, I just found a strange combination of monsters...
-glitch at reflective floor? if you look not up the reflective floor it´ll get strange results (maybe it´s my gpu)

I like your mod, it´s too detailed and lol, cursed maze is bigger than this huge map O_O

Re: [Release] The Refinery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:07 pm
by oysterstew
Tormentor667 wrote:
BlueFireZ88 wrote:My serious grip with it is not really being able to properly play it when the framerate drops,

That's a strange thing, none of my beta testers suffered this issue (6 of them) and it runs even fine on my older laptop from 2009.

BlueFireZ88 wrote:So what I said in my last post was out of frustration for not being able to play this as intended, and I am sorry if you took offense to it.

That's just fine :)


I wonder if the framerate issues some are having might have to do with the graphics chipsets. I can't run this in opengl mode on my laptop or desktop as the framerate drops to slideshow speed on laptop and uplayable speeds on the desktop. Both use ati/amd cards or chips. For the most part I haven't had any problems running anything with gzdoom up to this point on either machine.

The people having problems are you using ati/amd graphics?