[Release] The Refinery

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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Tormentor667 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:09 am

So - without removing the monsters, what ideas do you have in mind to improve them? What is really bad about them and how can it be made better without totally losing the way the wad is meant to be played? (careful, slow)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Blue Shadow » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:04 am

Apart from what I've suggested on Doomworld forums:

Give the player a little bit of a breather in the form of additional health and or armor, because some situations can't be avoided, especially when fighting zombies that have instant-hit attacks like the auto shotgunners, SMG dudes, railgunners, etc. I'm not saying you overload the level with health and armor, but make it so the player doesn't feel like he/she is being chocked to death.

You can toss in a bit of ammo, if you want, though ammo wasn't a major issue for me, since I'm usually conservative when it comes to ammo (switching to the fist when fighting pinkies, for instance).

Of course, I'm talking about the first run-through, here.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Shadelight » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:27 am

I think more shotgun ammo would be nice. You can get it early on but there's just not enough ammo to support fights like the ones right at the beginning.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Ghastly » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:18 pm

Tormentor667 wrote:What is really bad about them and how can it be made better without totally losing the way the wad is meant to be played? (careful, slow)
I really don't think much should be done about them. I never had any problems with them by playing the game carefully and slowly. The trick is not to put yourself into a situation where rocket zombies, quad-shotgun zombies or repeater zombies are dangerous, and no part of the map forces you into those situations. They have obvious ways of defeating them (Repeater zombie has a long spin-up delay, quad-shotgun is very close-range, rocket zombie has a slow projectile); why should the mapper have to widely change his project because people are attacking in a way those monsters are good at countering?

Though, I think change the repeater zombie's firing speed back to how the original was. It melts you too quickly at the moment. :P
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Ravick » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:06 pm

I guess many of the complains comes from the habit of playing Doom maps in a 'fast-circle-dodging' strategy. This map becomes challenger mainly because this strategy is a bad choice here, not because the map itself has gameplay problems. (But some more stimpacks would definitively help! :p )
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Tormentor667 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:44 pm

Ravick wrote:I guess many of the complains comes from the habit of playing Doom maps in a 'fast-circle-dodging' strategy. This map becomes challenger mainly because this strategy is a bad choice here, not because the map itself has gameplay problems. (But some more stimpacks would definitively help! :p )

This is exactly what I have thought as well, thanks for supporting this.

@Ghastly - Same to you, thanks for that, glad that other people understand what I was aiming for :) Conc. the RepeaterZombie, I didn't change anything about it?! O_o
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Ghastly » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:25 pm

Tormentor667 wrote:Conc. the RepeaterZombie, I didn't change anything about it?! O_o

Huh, that is really odd. I could swear it's faster in Refinery, but I compared the decorate for the two and they're the same. :?

Though, the smoke sprites when its repeater overheats aren't offset properly. Keeps showing as much lower than it should be.

Edit: By the way, you left me out of the credits, and I coded 9 of the monsters (and sprited a few) in here. :P

Oh yeah, and Eriance isn't mentioned, either. :v
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Blue Shadow » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:33 pm

Ravick wrote:I guess many of the complains comes from the habit of playing Doom maps in a 'fast-circle-dodging' strategy. This map becomes challenger mainly because this strategy is a bad choice here, not because the map itself has gameplay problems.

When it comes to playing maps, especially new ones, I'm a cautious player. I don't go charging in a room killing everyting Rambo-style. With this map, I went even more cautious than usual, and yet it didn't prevent me from dying multiple times. You may think to yourself: "You must be a sucky Doom player, then". Well, I'm not a hardcore player nor a bad player. I consider myself quite decent. I play mostly with keyboard only, and I can complete hard mapsets like Epic 2, Plutonia, Plutonia 2 and Plutonia Revisited Community Project with that. Sure, I die in them, but at least they give you all you could ever need to complete them. They don't hold back, not on health, armor, ammo, weapons, etc. Here, you're "starved", and in return you get a bunch of new, tough monsters that probably haven't been tested thoroughly to see if they're balanced or not for casual gameplay.

Ghastly_dragon wrote:I really don't think much should be done about them. I never had any problems with them by playing the game carefully and slowly.

Familiarity plays a significant role, my friend. You, Ghastly, are one of two main people that maintain the monsters submitted to the beastiary and you most probably know these custom monsters more than most people (you also admited that you coded 9 of them), thus you have an advantage over the rest of us who don't know about them. So, your opinion isn't 100% valid, I'm afraid.

Tormentor667 wrote:This is exactly what I have thought as well, thanks for supporting this.

@Ghastly - Same to you, thanks for that, glad that other people understand what I was aiming for

Heh, I can sense it in you Torm. You don't want to change a thing about the map, do you? :p Well, if you don't want to, then don't. I respect that. I'm not the kind of people who force their opinons on others. I'm just trying to make a point.


I'm afraid I'm gonna have to say it, the new monsters are a big mistake. The map could've been a million times better without them. But that's just me.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Machalite » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:54 pm

Enemies with hitscan attacks are designed specifically to deal minor damage, because you can't avoid hitscans. They are supposed to be diametrically opposed to projectiles, giving you a large margin for error. The railgun zombies' damage potential is outrageous compared to the original zombies, and having that combined with perfect accuracy makes them frustrating, not challenging. The quad-shotgun and automatic shotgun zombies have the same problem as well. Adding additional health to the levels will give players that necessary margin for error (and god knows you need it, considering this doesn't have difficulty settings), but it doesn't address the crux of the matter: that the zombie enemies are unfair. No amount of rationalizing to yourself that you're 'playing the game wrong' changes bad design; it only helps you cope.

I hope that gets taken into consideration. I thought this was an enjoyable experience regardless. From the start I expected something akin to Legacy of Suffering, with slow pacing and horror elements, so I was a little disappointed when it turned into a conventional level after the first three minutes. But that's my fault, and not a knock against this. This still nails what I expect from Tormentor: quality mapping, perfect atmosphere, and a typically good use of Realm667 resources. I didn't feel the gameplay lived up to its potential, though, because it lacks a noticeable difficulty curve. As a result, the last fight doesn't feel any more significant or challenging than the first, so the ending was particularly flat.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Kappes Buur » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:39 pm

I just got around to playing this.
After 10 minutes of play I just had to stop and insert a new piece of music for MUSIC2.

Great atmosphere, architecture and gameplay, And certainly challenging.
Mostly excellent textures, the STARGx textures, for example, don't fit somehow.

A little too dark for me, after the lights went out. Had to up the brightness by 24.

Oh, those damnable flies :shock: :D
Last edited by Kappes Buur on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby BlueFireZ88 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:42 pm

Blue Shadow wrote:
Tormentor667 wrote:This is exactly what I have thought as well, thanks for supporting this.

@Ghastly - Same to you, thanks for that, glad that other people understand what I was aiming for

Heh, I can sense it in you Torm. You don't want to change a thing about the map, do you? :p Well, if you don't want to, then don't. I respect that. I'm not the kind of people who force their opinons on others. I'm just trying to make a point.


I'm afraid I'm gonna have to say it, the new monsters are a big mistake. The map could've been a million times better without them. But that's just me.



I'm with Blue Shadow, Torm seems pretty hellbent (pardon the pun) on keeping things the way they are. Although, I have to speak against Torm's position as I feel that he's being stubborn and ignoring legitimate criticisms to change aspects of the mod (such as difficulty curve, game flow, poor use of new enemies, and even poor graphical performance on certain systems due to going overboard with the GL effects).
I already know I'm going to get serious flak for this comment, but unless he's shows that he's actually taking these various critiques to heart, I'm not changing my opinion.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby scalliano » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:52 pm

@Machalite: I'm glad you brought up LoS, since we're discussing hitscanners being frustrating ...

LoS managed to be frustrating with the default hitscanners (SSG zombie notwithstanding), although that was mostly down to sheer numbers and lack of cover in a lot of areas. In this map the new zombies are quite sporadic, and there's usually a corner to duck behind. They may get you once or twice (they sure as hell got me), but for the most part, they're easily dealt with. Only a couple of times I found their placement a bit cheap (the Sonic Railgunner at the end of the corridor following the shoot-switch door is a prime culprit) but overall I enjoyed their inclusion. There is no rationalization required here, it's just an aspect of Doom's gameplay which is rarely touched upon these days. Compare being sniped by a Chaingunner that's so far away you have no idea where you're being hit from. That's unfair. At least you can see the railtrail.

If I were to take exception to any monster in this map, it's the Vore. I hated it in Quake and I hate it even more now. I was always of the belief that you were supposed to be able to avoid projectile attacks. It's an impressive piece of coding, but that's it. Once it gets a shot off, no matter where you try to hide, you're fucked. Give me a room full of QSG Guys over these fuckers any day.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby Gez » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:02 pm

You can get the vore's projectiles to crash against walls. Same principle as for revenant missiles, but they are a bit slower and a lot more maneuverable, so you have to be tighter in your movement. Don't stray far from a wall, and hug it while retreating behind the corner. If that fails, you can always retreat behind a manual door and close it. Still a lot easier to dodge than hitscans, and it deals less damage than a full blast from the quadshotters.

If you're not a hiding pansy, you can also charge the vores and just kill them quick. They take a while to power their attack, and you can pump them full of rockets before they've finished.
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby The Ultimate DooMer » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:04 pm

I was able to avoid the vore shots, just run towards them when you've gone back through the door (they can't do a full 180° turn, and will just hit the wall)
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Re: [Release] The Refinery

Postby scalliano » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:08 pm

Rocket-spam has always been my preferred tactic. I'm not normally the duck'n'cover type :P
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