Sabbat Martyr II Contributions

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Postby Dutch Devil » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:37 pm

In every project he shows I see the same style of mapping which isn't an bad thing of course its just his style you just have to like his style of mapping I think an certain group of people like his style and become fans and others just can't dig it and might find someone else his maps better.

I like the shots they look nice he is an very talented mapper I'm quite sure he knows more stuff about Zdoom mapping than I know.
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Postby Ryan Cordell » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:00 pm

Tormentor667 wrote:Can you be more precise? Maybe even some screenshots? I just don't get it right now...


Now I'm not sure if I was precise enough. You could take a peek at SOME Unreal/Unreal Tournament maps (Ofcourse, they're 3d games so it's quite harder in Doom.) and draw some inspiration. Now I ain't saying you are lacking in level themes, you seem to be quite good at that. Quite a good detailer too, but just my suggestion, is to differ some detailing styles. Try a method of bringing a level alive in a way you wouldn't know. Add something more fresh to it. Not exactly the same old borders, missing tiles on ground type.

@Keksdose: Now, I am one who likes good detail. I didn't really mention, but I am a pixel artist (hate to boast) and I'd criticize some maps and their detail styles all the same as I would most pixel work by artists. I know Torm is a hard working guy who just wants to please us with his maps, don't get me wrong. Even if most of it was not directed me, I never implied Torm's maps had such bad gameplay that I would've been forced to Tyson about 100 Cyberdemons (Something which I consider Belial/Chuck Norris would do in his spare time. :P) all while with 1 HP and walking around, not running. His TNT series in particular had some great memories due to how the new detail enriched the maps and set it as a classic map pack to me. (Although difficulty can be annoying. :P)

All I'm saying, as I said many, MANY times, is for him to try diffrent approaches to detailing. Diffrent styles. Something.. New. (Ofcourse you'd still get Deathz0r being a total bitch and hating everything akin to Maddox)

Like, experimenting with more mid-texture usages, more 3d floors or stacked sector usage for fancier effects, such things, more ACTOR lights and such. Can't really offer or explain further, he'd just have to test and try.
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Postby Zippy » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:24 pm

HotWax wrote:The endless bashing of Tormentor's mapping style is getting a little old. He cares about making maps that look good; what exactly is wrong with that? You can argue all you want that its the gameplay that matters and not the detail, but seeing as how none of you has actually played these maps yet, I'm gonna call bullshit on that one.
I'm with Blade. There's no bashing here. Actually, I believe that most times I've given my opinion of Tormentor's maps that I have played, it generally was something along the lines of, "It's pretty good." In this particular instance, I haven't even mentioned gameplay precisely because I haven't played the maps. In addition, this isn't about the detail vs. gameplay thing.

Tormentor667 wrote:So I doubt that my "detail style" has something to do with the fact that you aren't impressed by the visuals.
Ah ah ah. I didn't say I wasn't impressed.

What I said was that, for me, the screenshots are personally useless. What is going on is that, in honesty, most of the time I see the screenshots you post, I feel like I'm looking at the same thing, over and over. Considering that screenshots from your works are the only thing that do that to me, I'm left with the conclusion that it is something about the way you do things. The end effect, for me, is that the screenshots are useless since it seems they present nothing new; they don't generate any interest to want to play the map.

Your maps have some theming differences, sure... space station, library in hell, etc. But their presentation always seems mostly the same. That's what would be nice to see a variation of.

Tormentor667 wrote:Can you be more precise? Maybe even some screenshots? I just don't get it right now...
Either try, or just think about, this: make a map which you could submit anonymously, and no one would be able to deduce that you were the author. It would be an interesting exercise, at the least.

KeksDose wrote:This detail should make you stay stunned in front of your monitor.
Interestingly, I would say that it is the reverse. The hallmark of good detail is that the player does not even notice it, because it fits in so well. You don't get stunned; you get absorbed. It draws you into to the game.
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Postby Enjay » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:31 pm

Zippy wrote:Either try, or just think about, this: make a map which you could submit anonymously, and no one would be able to deduce that you were the author. It would be an interesting exercise, at the least.

Whilst that would be an interesting exercise for Torm, or any mapper, it also carries with it a mild implication that there is something wrong with his style. I don't believe there is. Tormentor could easily make a map consisting of 128 tall, square Startan rooms connected by BIGDOOR2 and no details. I'm sure people wouldn't recognise the author. Although I accept, implicit in your "challenge" would be a map of a quality consistent with his other releases.

Is it something he should try? Well, obviously that's his choice. It might help widen his repertoire of things to do in a map, forcing innovation (although I don't think he is lacking in that department). It might also lead to frustration or something sub-standard where a typical Tormentor piece of architecture (whatever that might be) would have been the perfect thing for the map but was omitted just to ensure the map's anonymity.

I agree that there is something about how Torm makes maps that means you look at a screenshot and say to yourself "that's got all the hallmarks of a Tormentor map". However, I really don't think that's a bad thing. I just think it's something along the lines of being able to spot a van Gough or a Picasso from the style of the artist or recognise a NIN tune by its sound rather than the subject material or Trent's voice. People go on about how you can see the various hallmarks of the map authors at id in the original IWAD levels. I think it's probably something that is there at some fundamental level in the creative process (and I know it can evolve and change over time). We can all make generalisations about the type of song, movie, article, novel, drawing, map, whatever a well enough known artist/author makes. Who knows? Perhaps it's a comfort zone thing (perhaps subliminally) or maybe there is nothing more to it than that's just how they do their thing. I'm sure psychologists must have batted that one around extensively.

As to what the specific things are that identify a map as a Tormentor one (ie, what typifies his style), I'm not sure. Perhaps it is detail. Perhaps it's light gradients. Perhaps it's particular editing tricks that he uses more than others. And here's a more controversial one: perhaps Tormentor posts better looking screenshots than a lot of mappers and his "style" is prettier maps than many (but not all, of course) people can produce. Or perhaps "better looking" could be redefined as something that looks almost as if it is a level from a newer game with a more advanced engine (which I concede, many people will not equate with better looking).
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Postby Zippy » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:20 pm

Enjay wrote:I agree that there is something about how Torm makes maps that means you look at a screenshot and say to yourself "that's got all the hallmarks of a Tormentor map". However, I really don't think that's a bad thing. I just think it's something along the lines of being able to spot a van Gough or a Picasso from the style of the artist or recognise a NIN tune by its sound rather than the subject material or Trent's voice.
I don't have any real contention to this point. It's more that it expresses exactly what I've tried to say: Tormentor's screenshots don't do anything for me, because all I see is a "Tormentor map". Whether that's a good or a bad thing is definitely far more subjective. Of course, if the goal were to get me to anticipate/play the map, then it probably would be a reasonable guess to say that it is bad thing, because, as stated, the Tormentor architecture screenshots don't seem to generate any interest in me at all. If the goal is just to get people in general, it falls more towards "who knows", but prior postings probably suggest more towards the positive side.

Enjay wrote:Whilst that would be an interesting exercise for Torm, or any mapper, it also carries with it a mild implication that there is something wrong with his style.
This is something of an interestingly tricky wording issue, particularly with word meaning. I guess in some sense it is true. That is, it in someways implies something is "wrong." Namely, what's "wrong" is that it produces screenshots which don't increase my desire to the play the map. In that sense it really depends on what your interpretation of "wrong" is.

My intention was not, and is not, to state that there is something BAD wrong with his style. Again, just to state that his screenshots aren't interesting to me.

In that light, the exercise is not a request, but an attempt at a helpful suggestion. You are absolutely right that it is his choice. And naturally, doing things he wants to do should be a major impetus in his decisions in mapping. The idea of suggesting the exercise isn't to say, "A map that doesn't look like you made it would be better." The thing is in the word exercise itself. He could do it, but there's no telling what will come out of it. It could be an utterly terrible map. But the physical map result is unimportant. The idea is that, by doing the exercise itself (actively, not half-heartedly), he is forced to "think outside his own box", so to speak. Whether or not it would improve him as a mapper is an open question, but time would probably eventually tell.
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Postby Enjay » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:32 pm

Hopefully I didn't come across as falling out with you (not that you have said I did). Your points are well made and I don't believe there was any troll-like or insulting connotations intended.

Actually, I quite like the suggestion of Torm, or anyone, trying to make a map that isn't typically "them" even if it is just an exercise for themselves to try and expand their horizons and repertoire.
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Postby Potnop » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:36 pm

Looks nothing like Dead Simple from the screenshots. Looks more like Quake 2 combined with Facing Worlds from UT.

Looks VERY nice though!!!!!!


EDIT:
NVM I didn't read carefully. This is a series of maps, not screenshots from one map. Hahahaaa, I see I was right. That map was based off of facing wrolds.
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Postby Tormentor667 » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:24 am

Enjay wrote:Hopefully I didn't come across as falling out with you (not that you have said I did). Your points are well made and I don't believe there was any troll-like or insulting connotations intended.
That's what I think as well and this exercise might be indeed very interesting :) Thx to you Enjay, Blade and Zippy for the comment, I think I got their points.

Everyone has a certain style of mapping after working for several years on Doom editing, that tightens more and more. It's particularly not something that happened only for me, just take a look at AgentSpork's maps or Dutch Devil's. You can recognize the author only from looking at the screenshots and for me this is a good thing :) You always know "It's Quality" if you only read the authors name ;)
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Postby Zippy » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:55 am

Enjay wrote:Hopefully I didn't come across as falling out with you (not that you have said I did).
Yeah, not really. It did sound like some points could use some more explicit elaboration, though, so I went ahead and tried to clarify.
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Postby Ryan Cordell » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:18 pm

Tormentor667 wrote:You always know "It's Quality" if you only read the authors name ;)


Unfortunately, I don't think the 'Dude! A map pack made by this author? It MUST rock!' sort of ordeal won't work. If I remember anything, just because the author made it doesn't necessarily mean it's automatically good (Please, don't use your name as a sort of 'this will instantly pwn' kinda thing). Which is what can be a bit disappointing, but a lot more for the people who adore said author's work.

However, that point aside, go ahead and map s'more. :P
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Postby Vader » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:46 pm

Nice screenshots, looks great!

I'd also agree with everything Enjay said in his post before the last one he made :)
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Postby skadoomer » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:42 pm

Tormentor667 wrote:Everyone has a certain style of mapping after working for several years on Doom editing, that tightens more and more.


I think the way you make those translucent light fade mid textures around flats with lights (ala RTC-3057) is a dead giveaway of a torm map. Between that and the usage of dark/ brown / quake textures is like your signature mapping style. Otherwise, you did do that simplicity tribute which was a different style of mapping for you, one i personally enjoyed. I guess everyone just has some gripes about the overuse of certain elements.

I don't think people would expect you to make a map entirely out of gray and wood textures of a shopping mall.

I keep hearing gripes with this gameplay thing. After much thought, i think i figured it out. A map with this so-called gameplay is one that is designed around monster battles and interaction instead of for monsters and interaction. The difference between the two is how well the monsters fit into the space and how well they are able to execute their attacks against the player. gameplay is the strategy you must use to kill all the monsters in the space without dying.

Personally i love your maps. I like what i am playing and don't feel like somehow I've been robbed for my time playing it.
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Postby Phobus » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:39 am

The thing about Tormentor667 mapping is that he has specific methods he sticks to, which means that everything he produces has a consistency to it. Now, for some people it might be boring, other people may see it as his style and other people might flame it because it T667 and they think it's funny.

In my eyes, his mapping is perfectly fine where detail and the like are concerned. The fact that every light he makes looks the same, with a different skin or colour scheme, doesn't actually matter. The only problems I've ever had with his mapping is the way it's become (particularly in Sapphirre and Austerity), in that it was just a pretty set of corridors, which were just that. The gameplay left a lot to be desired for me. However, as of late he's been improving that, so that doesn't matter.

I'd never be able to map like he does though. Not sure if that's good or bad. All I know is that I always try to stick in something new. That would be my style. It's quite random. Detail might be amazing, or it might not. The colour schemes may be a bit funky on occaission, and every room may look completely different from the last, or they might all look the same - the point is, it's how I map. Therefore, Torm having set syles would be how he maps, and consequently isn't good or bad.
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