Shades of doom

Discuss anything ZDoom-related that doesn't fall into one of the other categories.
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

Sphagne wrote:My point is that with ZDoom we can make levels that would feel and look exactly like Doom 1 levels and we can make totally different things, ask Cyb if you like, and this new addition would add a new era for the level designers. I think that you do not like ACS and the opportunities that it have given us, hmm?

I was adding this stealth feature by ACS but I thought that by adding it to the engine, we can let the level designers to have it just by adding a line in the MAPINFO, not like me by doing double the total work required for a level design just to add it in my levels.

Chris, thanx for your support, :-) what is the new AI thingy you wrote about in your first post?
Cyb's stuff also contains megabytes of custom graphics, sounds, etc etc etc. Cyb would never ask Randy to make those custom resources a part of stock ZDoom, because they simply don't belong there. By the same token, something so specific to a certain mod belongs in its own source port, not in ZDoom's base code.

ACS is not a ZDoom feature, it's a Hexen feature that has been expanded to allow for more freedom with what could already be done. Do not confuse the two concepts.
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Sphagne
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Post by Sphagne »

Heh, if you call this a massive work then I dont know what to say, this is basically adding a formula at the end of an available function and two new properties for actors with a default value of 100 and a way to let the designers to change these new properties, ok so you are a professional programmer and know what you are talking about, so I would not pursue this again. Sorry to bother you all.
GameArena
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Post by GameArena »

I've been working on a source modification (up to a few days ago, when I couldn't get 48 to compile ;) ). It's based on 43 but has a lot of the things it seems as though you are looking for, Sphagne. Through new "Mod Files" you can better tweak AI. Example below:

<thinginfo>AZombieMan
<droptype>none
<fearful>
<shadowman>
<harmless>

BTW, there are a ton more features of Mod Files, (including new firetype creations). The above would produce a harmless "guy" who would try to stay in the shadows and runs away from the player if visible. If you'd like I suppose I can continue work on it and release it for your use. In addition it has lots of new ACS commands and options for mappers, including enviromental sound mapping for footsteps (which adds tons of atmosphere).
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

Sphagne wrote:Heh, if you call this a massive work then I dont know what to say, this is basically adding a formula at the end of an available function and two new properties for actors with a default value of 100 and a way to let the designers to change these new properties, ok so you are a professional programmer and know what you are talking about, so I would not pursue this again. Sorry to bother you all.
I'm not a professional programmer, though I do know my way around a compiler, and I'm not saying it's too hard to implement, nor am I saying it's a bad idea. All I ever said was that I don't see this as something that needs to be placed in the core compile. If someone like GA or someone else wants to help you make a ZDoom mod, by all means go for it. I just see you asking Randy to make these changes time and time again and was expressing my opinion as to why these don't necessarily fit in with ZDoom's purpose. As part of a mod, I'm sure they would make excellent additions.

Just look at SkullTag. It has several additions that don't need to be in the core ZDoom code but nevertheless are widely accepted and popular additions for that particular mod. All it takes is someone willing to put in the time to program a ZDoom offshoot and enhance it with good ideas like yours.
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Graf Zahl
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Post by Graf Zahl »

Sphagne wrote:Heh, if you call this a massive work then I dont know what to say, this is basically adding a formula at the end of an available function and two new properties for actors with a default value of 100 and a way to let the designers to change these new properties, ok so you are a professional programmer and know what you are talking about, so I would not pursue this again. Sorry to bother you all.

Maybe, but getting the side effects under control is the real work in cases like this. Doom's physics and AI code is such a convoluted mess that small changes often have totally unpredictable effects which aren't apparent while you are doing the change. Just look at Randy's recent attempt to make monsters walk on invisible bridges. The first version he released screwed up the first time I tested it on a real level because he didn't consider a few subtle side effect of his change.

I think before any AI enhancements can be done to it that really work the entire AI logic has to be rewritten from scratch. As it is I wóuldn't touch it.
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Lexus Alyus
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Post by Lexus Alyus »

Game Arean! Can you implement this new MOD thing into the latest Zdoom releases? Secondly, once this is working, can I have a copy of this engine so I can mod with it... thirdly, can you implement differant blood colours... green blood for barons, blue for cacos and maybe add a feature where you can set your own blood colour for differant monsters (maybe do that in the MOD thingy...). Plus, you have footsteos in your mod! :-D

:twisted:
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

Lexus Alyus wrote:Game Arean! Can you implement this new MOD thing into the latest Zdoom releases? Secondly, once this is working, can I have a copy of this engine so I can mod with it... thirdly, can you implement differant blood colours... green blood for barons, blue for cacos and maybe add a feature where you can set your own blood colour for differant monsters (maybe do that in the MOD thingy...). Plus, you have footsteos in your mod! :-D

:twisted:
The blood colors are something I'd like to see, actually. Not by default mind, but the ability to specify different blood colors for different enemies. Very useful for mods and whatnot, too. Currently, DECALDEF makes a mention that in the future decal color will be determined by "the monster's blood color" but I'd rather have the ability to specify exactly what decals a monster spawns, similar to the way generators are used when they attack, generators would be added that spawn when they get hit. (Currently anything that bleeds automatically generates blood decals and you can't differentiate between any two bleeding Things :()
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Xaser
 
 
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Post by Xaser »

You know, Sphagne, if you just go ahead and just use your scripted "stealth" stuff, then it would be done faster than you think, instead of trying to convince randy to do something he's not going to do. :P You do have alot of cool ideas, but as it was said before, it would break compatibility for alot of older maps.
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Enjay
 
 
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Post by Enjay »

I originally wanted to make my NJThiefy WAD a bit more of a sneaky affair. However I soon realised that even with a cunning reject, you'd never really get the feeling thet you were truly hiding from the enemy, and that if you left it long enough they would give up - because they wouldn't. I suppose it could be made a bit more believable with clever use of thing hate, but that wasn't available then.
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Lexus Alyus
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Post by Lexus Alyus »

So... could it be possible to spawn lotsa gibs and stuff in later zdooms?
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Sphagne
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Post by Sphagne »

Xaser: I think that adding an option in the MAPINFO and using a boolean variable before the changes would not make this incompatible with older wads.

I can go on and implement it via ACS, but I thought it would real good to see more *real* stealth based levels around made by other people to play, because playing a level which one has made is not as pleasing as a new one which one does not know.

Just think about it, you add a line in the MAPINFO and you have a stealthy level, you must stick to shadow to bypass the big badasses around and make a strategy to how to finish the levels.

I am currently working on a level which one have to bypass big baddass robots and find some computer stations to hack and take control of some of the robots to trash the others. All can be done via ACS but the stealth would not be as good as when incorporated in the game engine.

In my oppinion this change can be done in a few days and the result would be a whole new genre of stealth based levels, a time spent in a good way and I have not lost my hope that Randy would eventually implement it.

Enjay's thiefy levels would become easy to implement and also my Elidor.

Game Arena: Thanx for your suggestion, but I do not want to break from mainstream, because my choices would be reduced by doing this. :-) Can you not make a team with Randy and Add them to ZDoom? by the way, I liked your changes, continue your good work.
GameArena
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Post by GameArena »

Well, I had been working my ass off to get the new 48 src to compile, but got nowhere. I still have one computer left, and I'm pretty sure it'll work, it's what I'm using to develop fear factor. Maybe later today I'll try to make a backup of all my files (most likely nothing bad will happen, but I want to be prepared ;) ). If I decide not to at the last minute, maybe I'll release a "tech demo" of some of the new features in my additions to Zdoom 43, I'll think people will be fairly impressed.
GameArena
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Post by GameArena »

I finally managed to get 48 to compile, appearently it disliked my DX9 SDK ;) . Upon installing the DX8 SDK it seemed to work fine, I still don't know "why" it wasn't compiling, as all DX SDKs are backwards compatable. I've started "porting" some of the new features into 48, so maybe in a week or so I can give you something (mod file interigation is 2000+ lines, and it's mingled in with some other files) . Also any requests will be put into consideration, although keep in mind I'm currently pitiful at best when dealing with 3d rastering operations, so game logic is prefered ;) .
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

SkullTag "broke away from the mainstream" and is doing quite well. You can't expect one person to implement every feature under the sun into the base source port.
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Sphagne
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Post by Sphagne »

Just a very few days of work and a whole new concept for level design in ZDoom, why not?

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